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Hey folks:
I've updated my guide to PF2e wizards. It's at the same address as always:
Tarondor’s Guide to the Pathfinder Second Edition (REMASTERED) Wizard
I've already seen fifty short guides on this forum that summed it up in one line: "Don't play it!!!!!!"
I'm going to guess this is 400 pages before opening it.
(Checks.)
Should have bet the under, but not by much.
Thanks for your work. I'll be looking over this.
Maybe this is a bit out of pocket. But since you've scrolled through all the spells in detail, what's your opinion on the relative efficacy of silver bullet spells in their optimal situation, and generalist spells in that same situation? (To be clear, I'm not looking to argue or debate this in any way. I'm just basically looking to hear your take and say, "thank you." I understand if you don't want to answer because it could derail the thread really heavily.)
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Eh, what's a little derailment amongst friends?
I assume by "silver bullet spells" you mean spells specialized for a limited set of circumstances?
If so, I cover that in my tactics section. A wizard is first and foremost -smart- and should make use of that. The player should seek information before permitting their party to go into danger. You're playing a genius, so act like it. Gather information about your opposition. Study dusty tomes and question local hunters and guides. Seek the opinions of oracles and sages. Then and only then will you be able to select the most useful spells for whatever mayhem you're walking into.
All spellcasters, but especially the smart ones (witches and wizards, mostly) should have at their disposal not only a set of generally useful spells in their spell slots, but a selection of must-have spells in wands and a selection of what you call silver-bullet spells (I call 'em black swan spells) on scrolls.
For example, I play a wizard in PFS. He's currently 9th level. In addition to his spell slots, he's got -more- spell slots because he took the bard archetype. Then he's got -more- spell slots because he carries seven wands of commonly-used spells and ten scrolls of spells I know I'll need "someday." Plus he's got healer's gloves, goggles of night and a wayfinder of rescue for what amount to even more spells. It's possible you can catch him unready, but you're going to have to work for it. In short, you don't have to choose. Take them both!
I hope that answered your question!
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I've already seen fifty short guides on this forum that summed it up in one line: "Don't play it!!!!!!"
I'm going to guess this is 400 pages before opening it.
(Checks.)
Should have bet the under, but not by much.
I was shocked myself. Perhaps I'm getting terse in my old age.
By the way, PLAY IT!!! Wizards are so much fun! I've never been at a loss for something fun to do when playing a wizard, and I usually have an answer for whatever problem besets the party. Need something blasted? I can do that. Need a door unlocked? I can do that. Need to get from here to way over there? I can do that!
Great guide Tarondor!
I think your evaluation of conceal spell is based on the legacy version instead of the remastered one though. The new concealed spell is incredibly more powerful than the old and has decent exploration mode utility in addition to its almost necessity to use spells in social encounters. The fact that it pretty much folds in silent spell, as well as not requiring rolls to use are massive boons and it really should be green if not blue.
Great guide Tarondor!
I think your evaluation of conceal spell is based on the legacy version instead of the remastered one though. The new concealed spell is incredibly more powerful than the old and has decent exploration mode utility in addition to its almost necessity to use spells in social encounters. The fact that it pretty much folds in silent spell, as well as not requiring rolls to use are massive boons and it really should be green if not blue.
I did miss that it subsumed Silent spell. I still have never seen anyone try to use this feat in decades of play (and there's been something like it in print for the last quarter century). I can't see coloring it above Orange (which let me say once again does not connote a bad spell or feat, merely a niche one.)
Subtle is inherently on the important social plot spells (charm, suggestion) so the feat isn’t as important imo.
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Conceal spell allows prebuffing without alerting nearby enemies, with no checks. That is why it now has a lot of value in exploration mode.
If you know there’s an enemy nearby so that a buff will be useful in the next X rounds or minutes, you’ve already entered encounter mode. There are complicated ways to do this splitting the party that ignore the entire purpose of exploration mode simplifying things. If everyone has crazy good stealth and is avoiding notice I guess this can work sometimes.
Or they’re potentially a two to five round walk away through doors and around hallways and with ambient noise so that they would’nt hear you anyway.
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Or you’ve heard noises on the other side of a door, or chanting coming from down the hall, or loud snores coming from the den of a creature, and you haven’t moved forward. There are tons of AP examples of “ you know trouble is around the corner, but you don’t have to trigger the encounter yet. “
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In general, this seems very GM dependent. The advice in the "running exploration" section recommends giving a round of prebuffs if you have the drop on your opponents, but also says that you might get interrupted if your preparations give you away.
Casting advantageous spells before a fight (sometimes called “pre-buffing”) gives the characters a big advantage, since they can spend more combat rounds on offensive actions instead of preparatory ones. If the players have the drop on their foes, you usually can let each character cast one spell or prepare in some similar way, then roll initiative.
Casting preparatory spells before combat becomes a problem when it feels rote and the players assume it will always work—that sort of planning can't hold up in every situation! In many cases, the act of casting spells gives away the party's presence. In cases where the PCs' preparations could give them away, you might roll for initiative before everyone can complete their preparations.
I can see why one would think conceal spell would keep the last sentence from triggering. But based on the recommendation that "each character can cast one spell," I don't see conceal spell giving much value over what you're getting normally—especially in cases where you aren't casting more than one or two buffs.
I agree that folding silent and still spell into one thing makes it better than it used to be. But I think it's less obvious that conceal spell is going to allow you to postpone triggering encounters. Personally, it doesn't pass my common sense test: I would absolutely deny a player multiple rounds of prebuffs as GM if they tried to argue that conceal spell allowed them to do it. That's unusually strong compared to other feat options in practice, and also slows down play.
Or you’ve heard noises on the other side of a door, or chanting coming from down the hall, or loud snores coming from the den of a creature, and you haven’t moved forward. There are tons of AP examples of “ you know trouble is around the corner, but you don’t have to trigger the encounter yet. “
Strikes me that you would need to have the party use Avoid Notice in cases like this if you, well, wanted to Avoid Notice. If you weren't, you'd be assumed to be moving around normally—with normal footsteps, armor a-clinking, the whole nine yards. Conceal Spell would keep your abracadabra from waking Snorlax, but there'd still be a whole party of other people making noise.
Also, although I personally think it'd be rude to have a concealed spell stop you from hiding or avoiding notice... the game doesn't clearly state that casting a concealed spell is compatible with either. Perhaps some concealed spells are the kind of "particularly unobtrusive" action that "possibly require" another stealth check, as per hide. But Avoid Notice is far more unclear, with no such language. Everything about this seems up to your GM.
Personally, if I were GMing such a situation in 2E, I'd say you alert the sleeby creature if you don't explicitly avoid doing so—but I'd significantly reduce the perception DC you'd need to beat while using Avoid Notice, Hide, etc.; say that conceal spell doesn't break hiding, if the spell itself doesn't produce obvious effects; and give our napping no-good a perception penalty when it rolled initiative. However, other GMs may just assume the creature's senses are wholly disabled until they wake up and give you free reign. The Conceal Spell tactic seems much more effective with the latter kind of GM than with me.
stuff earlier
Thank you!
As a GM, I have any regular casting start an encounter right there, as spell casting requires incantations that would draw attention, unless there are exceptional circumstances.
If I am not going to have players moving past a door trigger an encounter otherwise, doing regular, non-spell casting exploration activities, I would not have any number of concealed spells/subtle spells trigger the encounter either. Class feats should do what they say on the box and not have GMs deliberately invalidate tactics the party is sinking resources into enabling. Occasionally, maybe a caster enemy who is set up detecting magic as a passive defensive activity will be around as an exceptional circumstance, but that would be like once a campaign unless caster dueling is a big, foreshadowed part of the campaign.
Yes the rest of the party has to be doing something while the spells are being cast, but if the party isn’t moving then there is no reason they don’t all just avoid notice until the spells are cast and then enter the room. Again, if you weren’t requiring stealth checks before the caster cast, especially if other characters were not avoiding notice, it doesn’t make any sense to require it just because potential pre-buffing makes the party stronger, and they built to do it quietly.
That's unusually strong compared to other feat options in practice
Yes. It is a big advantage that I want to control when I GM. So maybe Stealth checks for everything else is in order. The issue is coming up with an in game reason other than GM says.
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It's interesting. When you have a Google Doc, you can see how many people are looking at your page at any given time. Not who, just how many and whether they're active or idle. For the first two days after I put a guide out, I typically see 30-60 people reading it at any one time. But by day three, that number drops way off.
I have no idea if these numbers are at all significant, but right now these are the numbers reading my guides:
Wizard (3 days old) - 7
Cleric (2 months old) - 5
Bard (10 months old) - 6
Rogue (4 years old ) - 6
Fighter (4 years old) - 2
The number reading your 4 year old rogue guide is impressive. Rogue is an amazing class that you can build effectively in a ton of different ways. You should update it for the Remaster since they have some key improvements that made them even better.
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The number reading your 4 year old rogue guide is impressive. Rogue is an amazing class that you can build effectively in a ton of different ways. You should update it for the Remaster since they have some key improvements that made them even better.
I plan to redo all of them, in the order I wrote them. I'm redoing the Fighter guide now. Then rogues, then bards.
I've toyed around with the idea of maybe a guide to GMing. I can lose any admirers in one fell swoop!
It's interesting. When you have a Google Doc, you can see how many people are looking at your page at any given time. Not who, just how many and whether they're active or idle. For the first two days after I put a guide out, I typically see 30-60 people reading it at any one time. But by day three, that number drops way off.
I have no idea if these numbers are at all significant, but right now these are the numbers reading my guides:
Wizard (3 days old) - 7
Cleric (2 months old) - 5
Bard (10 months old) - 6
Rogue (4 years old ) - 6
Fighter (4 years old) - 2
My spell guide is sitting at 7 currently now and it is the middle of the night in the US. I keep it up to date, but my other guides rarely see more than a handful. It will be a couple of months before they are fully up to date. The delay is unfortunate in that there is a lot of buzz right now with the remaster coming out.
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It's interesting. When you have a Google Doc, you can see how many people are looking at your page at any given time. Not who, just how many and whether they're active or idle. For the first two days after I put a guide out, I typically see 30-60 people reading it at any one time. But by day three, that number drops way off.
I have no idea if these numbers are at all significant, but right now these are the numbers reading my guides:
Wizard (3 days old) - 7
Cleric (2 months old) - 5
Bard (10 months old) - 6
Rogue (4 years old ) - 6
Fighter (4 years old) - 2
My guide, which hasn't been updated in 4 years, and has a big "THIS IS ALL OUTDATED, DON'T USE" banner on it, still sits round 1-2 readers.
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Okay, fellow guide-writers, then answer me this: Do you get people requesting permission to edit your guides? I mean, at least once a month I get these weird requests.
I'm not sure whether it's a breathtaking hubris on their part or a startling lack of self-awareness. "Okay, guy I don't know on the Internet, I just spent 200+ hours researching, writing and editing this and my name is on it, but sure, you go ahead and screw around with it now. I'm sure you know what's best."
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Okay, fellow guide-writers, then answer me this: Do you get people requesting permission to edit your guides? I mean, at least once a month I get these weird requests.
I'm not sure whether it's a breathtaking hubris on their part or a startling lack of self-awareness. "Okay, guy I don't know on the Internet, I just spent 200+ hours researching, writing and editing this and my name is on it, but sure, you go ahead and screw around with it now. I'm sure you know what's best."
That's wild. If you're literally getting requests once a month, you could consider putting some kind of statement at the bottom that makes the following clear:
"This work has no licensing options; all rights are reserved, excepting those given to the hosting service in order host the document. You are free to cite the guide and note points where you disagree, but you are not free to modify or redistribute the guide, present any portion of the guide as your own work, and so on."
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You have shared the document url that you edit with. This is wrong and will generate edit requests.
Consider
https://docs.google.com/document/d/17DV4-uxKr_0QJCzXZ6pZ4qIblk_p8q2ESRhmwuX R4Y4/edit#heading=h.qna841i1aoa1
The published version of the document.
From File -> Share -> Publish to the Web
and copy that link
https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vRQGhpFfcHjNIdfZiw8jZymk4WemZIB ljTsJbjgP1eoDvWU9_zIPaEBY9hy8-RvVW2l6SXEnvSjoA5F/pub
The url is deliberately not a link in this post. Copy it manually into your browser.
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Okay, fellow guide-writers, then answer me this: Do you get people requesting permission to edit your guides? I mean, at least once a month I get these weird requests.
I'm not sure whether it's a breathtaking hubris on their part or a startling lack of self-awareness. "Okay, guy I don't know on the Internet, I just spent 200+ hours researching, writing and editing this and my name is on it, but sure, you go ahead and screw around with it now. I'm sure you know what's best."
I once had a laywer from Utah demand edit permissions or else they would "take act to obtain it".
After googling them, I was so suprised that they seemed to be legit. The internet is full of well-meaning if deluded people trying to "help". The internet is also full of crazy people.
Okay, fellow guide-writers, then answer me this: Do you get people requesting permission to edit your guides? I mean, at least once a month I get these weird requests.
I'm not sure whether it's a breathtaking hubris on their part or a startling lack of self-awareness. "Okay, guy I don't know on the Internet, I just spent 200+ hours researching, writing and editing this and my name is on it, but sure, you go ahead and screw around with it now. I'm sure you know what's best."
Nope, I have not gotten any requests for people to edit my guide. And much like you if anyone did they can go stow it. I opened a discussion thread so you can talk about what you think of the guide for a reason thank you.
The published version of the document.
From File -> Share -> Publish to the Web
and copy that link
Interesting. Actually, though, -I- sometimes use those links to get to the document I want to edit, so I probably won't go that way.
Also, the requests don't inconvenience me so much as amaze me.
I once had a laywer from Utah demand edit permissions or else they would "take act to obtain it".
After googling them, I was so suprised that they seemed to be legit. The internet is full of well-meaning if deluded people trying to "help". The internet is also full of crazy people.
You win the wacky story round, sir!
I should point out that I'm an attorney in real life. I would -love- it if some doofus tried to legal-fu me this way!
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So with Player Core 2 coming out are you going to go back through this to update it with the changes to everything or is that going to happen after you have updated your other guides?
Yes, I will definitely edit it, but I'm not certain when. I'm re-writing my Fighter guide right at the moment, so it'll wait that long, at least. And definitely not until the Player Core 2 changes are up on Archives of Nethys.
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Hello Tarondor,
Firstly, I really enjoy your guides.
My issue is with your Runemaster build for Wizards. In it, you recommend skill-ups for Occultism, but at level 14 onwards you suggest going 'Expert Cleric Spellcasting' which requires Religion. I wanted to point this out as I don't see how this build worked.
Thanks.
Harlequin381
Well, that probably came from our "It Was a Late Night" Department. But it could be from our "I Have an Infant Daughter and Don't Sleep" or "Just Plain Screw-Ups" departments.
I'll check it out.
So I've taken a look. For anyone playing along, this build appears on pp. 296-299 of the guide. It's the very first Wizard build in the guide and is intended as a generic "School of Ars Grammatica" build. All my builds come with a "No Free Archetype" and "With Free Archetype" version. In this case, the "With Free Archetype version" included both the Loremaster and Cleric archetypes.
So, no. There was no mistake or break down here. It's intentional. There is nothing about a cleric archetype (or indeed, the cleric class) that requires you to be highly trained in the Religion skill. It's unnecessary. It's thematic for many builds, but for this one, I preferred Occultism for the flavor. You could easily swap out Occultism for Religion if you chose and could then swap out the Occultism skill feats for Religion feats. No biggie.
But this build absolutely does not need high levels of either skill to function.
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I notice that your Apex item section omits the Whispering Staff. It's 20th level, but I consider it to be the best Apex item for Wizard's in general.
I'm also a big fan, personally, of Bestiary Scholar. It current stacks with Knowledge is Power for spell attacks. There also might be a bit of wombo-combo if you use Bestiary Scholar, Knowledge is Power and Ancestral Memories on a Spell Attack.
At 20th though you can sub-out Knowledge is Power for the Whispering Staff's middle activation.
I notice that your Apex item section omits the Whispering Staff. It's 20th level, but I consider it to be the best Apex item for Wizard's in general.
I'm also a big fan, personally, of Bestiary Scholar. It current stacks with Knowledge is Power for spell attacks. There also might be a bit of wombo-combo if you use Bestiary Scholar, Knowledge is Power and Ancestral Memories on a Spell Attack.
At 20th though you can sub-out Knowledge is Power for the Whispering Staff's middle activation.
Yeah, you're right. Those are great.
What does Ancestral Memories add to the combo, though?
I notice that your Apex item section omits the Whispering Staff. It's 20th level, but I consider it to be the best Apex item for Wizard's in general.
I'm also a big fan, personally, of Bestiary Scholar. It current stacks with Knowledge is Power for spell attacks. There also might be a bit of wombo-combo if you use Bestiary Scholar, Knowledge is Power and Ancestral Memories on a Spell Attack.
At 20th though you can sub-out Knowledge is Power for the Whispering Staff's middle activation.
Yeah, you're right. Those are great.
What does Ancestral Memories add to the combo, though?
Ancestral Memories has been completely changed in the remaster. Now it's one action to apply a -1 status penalty to one target's save against your next spell that round. It heightens to -2 at 5th rank and -3 at 8th.
Got it. Keen!
Hello grovel doesn't work on ranged attacks or spell attacks.
To which part of my guide are you referring?
Hello grovel doesn't work on ranged attacks or spell attacks.To which part of my guide are you referring?
Grovel It is a Kobold Ancestry feat. Yes you can read it so it is almost totally useless, or you can read the feat as specifically enabling a ranged feint. In which case I always consider the right approach is to allow it to function. That is a rule too. So I allow it to work at range.
But if you just want to say no because that is how you read it, then say no and no one will ever take the feat, except for soon to be disillusioned newbies.
Sorry Tarondor for butting in.
Not at all. This is a forum, not "Tarondor's private musings." Let's talk!
I'm with Gortle on this. Why have a rule if it has no function? The obvious intent of grovel is to permit a feint that affects a ranged attack.
What would be the benefit of using grovel to feint at up to 30 ft away over using create a diversion to become hidden at what seems to be any distance the GM says the targets can see/hear you from?
Edit: answered my own question. Success insurance and no auditory or manipulate traits
Quick note:
Tailwind () - was: lonstrider. A long-duration speed boost. Cast this on mobile characters or characters who need more mobility (like your medic!). The 2nd-rank version lasts for 8 hours and is a great choice for a wand.
Personal Spell.
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Also Floating Flame can now hit up to 3 adjacent creatures a turn. Combined with the save upgrading to a real basic, this spell feels way better in the Remaster.
I'm very new to pf so this may be a silly question, but where are you getting the fourth int boost in your necromancer example build? Seer of the Dead appears to only give a single wis or con boost. (Also sorry for posting in a two month old thread :p)
I'm very new to pf so this may be a silly question, but where are you getting the fourth int boost in your necromancer example build? Seer of the Dead appears to only give a single wis or con boost. (Also sorry for posting in a two month old thread :p)
Yeah, I don't see how he can have a +4 to Intelligence at first level with a background that only gives one Ability boost (and which can't be Intelligence).
With the current parameters, I'm only able to get
STR +0, DEX +2, CON +1, INT +3, WIS +2, CHA +0
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I'm very new to pf so this may be a silly question, but where are you getting the fourth int boost in your necromancer example build? Seer of the Dead appears to only give a single wis or con boost. (Also sorry for posting in a two month old thread :p)
I think it's just been an oversight. Not a lot of Backgrounds only grant a single boost.
Most follow a pattern of "Select from X or Y + Free".