Instant death vs eidolon

[SuperParkourio]

Death
Summoner

I'm trying to understand eidolons because I want to be a Stand user.

So if an eidolon fails a saving throw and just straight-up dies (as with Scare to Death's crit effect), the eidolon drops to zero HP and can't be bought above zero HP until it's no longer dead. While dead, the eidolon also can't act. The eidolon also unmanifests because it's reduced to zero HP.

The summoner doesn't suffer the can't act restriction, but the summoner shares their Hit Points with the eidolon, and they are also subject to the same effects that affect Hit Points. This means that although the summoner is alive, they cannot exceed zero HP until the eidolon is brought back to life.

The eidolon whose body... will only appear... if the summoner... Manifests the Eidolon...

This seems too problematic. Does the eidolon just not exist while unmanifested? Would that keep it from being dead? Or does the summoner die when the eidolon dies and vice versa?

[The Raven Black]

Summoner states : "Damage taken by either you or the eidolon reduces your Hit Points, while healing either of you recovers your Hit Points."

Death reduces the eidolon's HPs to zero. But since it is not damage, it does not reduce the Summoner's HPs to zero.

[shroudb]

It's my understanding that a death effect (that deals no damage and just kills) will basically unmanifest the Eidolon, forcing the summoner to spend 3 actions next turn if he wants to bring it back.

[Tridus]

Scare to Death doesn't do damage, strictly speaking. It puts to Dead. So the Summoner isn't impacted here at all, as Dead is not a condition that gets shared.

The rules don't really spell out what happens to the Eidolon explicitly, but the Eidolon can't die in the sense that a player can, so the most straightforward thing to have happen is it unmanifests and would have to be summoned again.

Otherwise you start getting into difficult situations like "if I summon it again, is it still Dead?" and "does Raise Dead even work on an Eidolon?" And of course, we know that dying from HP damage doesn't kill the Eidolon because once the Summoner is healed back up they can immediately summon it again. So it feels consistent to go with unmanifest in this situation.

[Baarogue]

inb4 "so that means Meld makes the summoner immune to death effects"

[SuperParkourio]

The Raven Black wrote:

Summoner states : "Damage taken by either you or the eidolon reduces your Hit Points, while healing either of you recovers your Hit Points."

Death reduces the eidolon's HPs to zero. But since it is not damage, it does not reduce the Summoner's HPs to zero.

That's not possible. There is no difference between the eidolon's HP and the summoner's HP. They share the same pool. You can't have one reduced to 0 HP but not the other. The distinction of whether it counts as damage or not doesn't matter. So they're both at least being reduced to 0 HP.

[shroudb]

SuperParkourio wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Summoner states : "Damage taken by either you or the eidolon reduces your Hit Points, while healing either of you recovers your Hit Points."

Death reduces the eidolon's HPs to zero. But since it is not damage, it does not reduce the Summoner's HPs to zero.

That's not possible. There is no difference between the eidolon's HP and the summoner's HP. They share the same pool. You can't have one reduced to 0 HP but not the other. The distinction of whether it counts as damage or not doesn't matter. So they're both at least being reduced to 0 HP.

There is a bit of contradiction in the rules with Death Effects and Instant death compared to regular death:

Death and dying rules:

Quote:

After you die, you can’t act or regain actions, can’t be affected by spells that target creatures (unless they specifically target dead creatures), and for all other purposes, you’re an object. When you die, you’re reduced to 0 Hit Points if you had a different amount, and you can’t be brought above 0 Hit Points as long as you remain dead. Some magic can bring creatures back to life, such as the resurrect ritual or the raise dead spell, though these abilities aren’t without their risks or effects, and rare artifacts and powers can even interfere with them.

Death Effects:

Quote:

A death effect might state that it kills you outright, without dealing damage, in which case you die without having to first reach dying 4 or be reduced to 0 Hit Points. For instance, the Grim Reaper, an extremely powerful entity of death, can automatically slay creatures who fail their save against its death strike ability.

So, one reading indeed is that after you die you get reduced to 0. In which case the GM has to make a call if that reduction of HP happens before or after the Eidolon unmanifests since it died.

If the reduction happens before, then the Summoner indeed also has to go to 0, although since he goes to 0 not due to a death effect, but due to the effect of shared hp (which has no traits), he's just unconscious.

If the reduction happens after, then the Summoner is ok, damage wise.

Second reading is that the General rule for dying is to go to 0, but the specific rule for Death Effects ignores that.

In which case the Summoner is again fine.

So, 2/3 readings, Summoner is fine. 1/3 he's unconscious.

Imo, all 3 readings are valid as written, so just use what's better for the table.

[SuperParkourio]

Wait, there's something I haven't considered.

Death trait wrote:

An effect with the death trait kills you immediately if it reduces you to 0 HP. Some death effects can bring you closer to death or slay you outright without reducing you to 0 HP.

So if a death effect like vision of death reduces the eidolon to 0 Hit Points, then it also reduces the summoner to 0 Hit Points, so I guess it kills both of them?

And if the death effect of Scare to Death kills the eidolon, that reduces the HP pool to zero. But the death trait refers to this as "slaying you outright without reducing you to 0 HP. So I guess the reduction from becoming dead is actually separate from the death trait, which means the summoner survives with 0 HP and starts dying while the dead eidolon unmanifests.

So I guess it comes down to whether or not the eidolon still counts as dead while unmanifested?

Eidolon wrote:

You bring your eidolon into reality with the Manifest Eidolon action.

I guess it can't be dead if it's not real.

Edit: I see shroudb posted while I was typing. I don't see anywhere in the eidolon rules that the eidolon dying causes the eidolon to unmanifest on its own. It looks like it only unmanifests if forced beyond 100 feet from the summoner, if the summoner is reduced to 0 Hit Points, or if the summoner uses Manifest Eidolon while it's already manifested.

[shroudb]

SuperParkourio wrote:

Edit: I see shroudb posted while I was typing. I don't see anywhere in the eidolon rules that the eidolon dying causes the eidolon to unmanifest on its own. It looks like it only unmanifests if forced beyond 100 feet from the summoner, if the summoner is reduced to 0 Hit Points, or if the summoner uses Manifest Eidolon while it's already manifested.

Huh, that's correct.

Then, RAW, there's only 1 sequence:

Eidolon dies, its HP goes to 0, due to the shared HP, summoner goes to 0 and drops unconscious, due to Summoner being unconscious, eidolon unmanifests.

Important distinction is that the summoner got to 0 due to his "Eidolon" ability (which is where the shared HP comes from), which doesn't have the Death trait, so regardless if the Death effect dealt damage to get the Eidolon to 0, or instant killed it without damage, the Summoner won't die though.

[SuperParkourio]

I've been pointed to a spell called summoner's precaution.

It apparently gives the caster this reaction.

Sever Conduit Reaction wrote:

(concentrate) Trigger Your eidolon takes damage that would bring you to 0 Hit Points and comes from an effect other than a death effect; Effect You quickly shut the buffer in your link with your eidolon, causing your bonded ally to wink out of existence before you can be laid low. Your eidolon unmanifests, and you can't Manifest your Eidolon for 1 minute. In exchange, you don't take the triggering damage, though your eidolon still suffers any other adverse effects that accompanied the damage.

Some point to the trigger as hinting that death effects are intended to be fatal for both, which I guess would make sense considering they share the same life force.

On another note, the spell makes it clear that when this reaction is used, the eidolon still "suffers any adverse effects" that accompanied the negated damage despite "winking out of existence." So my theory about the eidolon avoiding being dead by ceasing to exist doesn't make sense.

[shroudb]

SuperParkourio wrote:

I've been pointed to a spell called summoner's precaution.

It apparently gives the caster this reaction.

Sever Conduit Reaction wrote:

(concentrate) Trigger Your eidolon takes damage that would bring you to 0 Hit Points and comes from an effect other than a death effect; Effect You quickly shut the buffer in your link with your eidolon, causing your bonded ally to wink out of existence before you can be laid low. Your eidolon unmanifests, and you can't Manifest your Eidolon for 1 minute. In exchange, you don't take the triggering damage, though your eidolon still suffers any other adverse effects that accompanied the damage.

Some point to the trigger as hinting that death effects are intended to be fatal for both, which I guess would make sense considering they share the same life force.

On another note, the spell makes it clear that when this reaction is used, the eidolon still "suffers any adverse effects" that accompanied the negated damage despite "winking out of existence." So my theory about the eidolon avoiding being dead by ceasing to exist doesn't make sense.

I wouldn't overthink a spell trigger being more specific. Imo it's just there to emphasize that Death Effects are more deadly, and you can't reduce them as easily.

What if the spell trigger was "except bludgeoning damage", would that alter the general rules of how bludgeoning damage affects an Eidolon?

Attacks/Spells on the Eidolon do not tranfer the effects of said attacks/spells on the Summoner, the only thing that transfers is damage. So there's 0 justification, without explicit language, that somehow the effects of the Death trait tranfer to the Summoner.

[Finoan]

I'm going to repeat my conclusion from this similar thread.

The ruling that Death effects don't affect the Eidolon because an Eidolon doesn't die is not exactly RAW. And it is a bit of a buff to the Eidolon.

The ruling that the Death effect kills the Summoner as well as the Eidolon no matter which of them it directly targets is not exactly RAW. But it is reasonable and it is balanced with how other characters interact with Death effects.

The strict RAW ruling (That the Eidolon dies permanently and irrecoverably, and the Summoner continues living but without an Eidolon) is a troll option. I don't recommend using that. Just use the option that a death effect that kills the Eidolon kills the Summoner too and skip the troll of the player.

Edit: There is also this thread that goes into the same topic.

[SuperParkourio]

The troll option is even worse than that. The summoner is alive at zero HP and can't gain more HP because the eidolon is dead. And no one can resurrect the eidolon because it's on another plane, and the only person who can summon it is unconscious.