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Why is shock to the system an occult spell? Is the occult tradition really just synonymous with “Somewhat creepy?”
Because Occult is the new Arcane list absent energy blasts? I always here folks talking about how Occult can't blast, but they have mental, force, vitality, and void blasting as well as telekinetic blasting stuff. Occult has some blasting ability with all the other stuff they can do.
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One of the strengths for a Wizard (or any prepared caster) that I haven't seen listed yet is their ability to prepare any spell they know in any slot they want above minimum spell level. A spontaneous caster only gets one signature spell per level. A level 11 wizard, can decide today to prepare all their 6th level slots with chain lightning and heightened fireballs. Tomorrow, its disintegrate and dispel magic. Next day it's summon dragon....etc.
even if you don't have access to your whole spell list, the spells you do have access to are more flexible (from a day to day standpoint) than a spontaneous spellcaster.
Some of you really don't know spontaneous casters very well. It always surprises me how little people who have primarily played a prepared caster or a wizard don't know about the sorcerer and how good it is.
They get the signature spells. Then they have feats to expand signature spells. The Arcane sorcerer gets a spellbook that provides them with a flexible signature spell or a flexible spell known.
With the Remaster they can use a higher level slot to cast a lower level spell which further makes them extremely flexible like using a 4th level slot to cast a level 3 slow since heightening slow doesn't matter much unless it is 6th or above.
That ability to prepare different spells in different slots is more of a limiter than a bonus because you cast it once and your slot is done other than one use of Arcane Bond, maybe two if the spell is low level enough.
And the sorcerer gets 36 total sells to choose from 1 to 9, 45 with a level 16 feat for occult and arcane.
And Occult sorcerers get a feat called Occult Evolution that allows them to choose any spell with the mental trait with 1 minute of prep time for the day. When I build my occult sorcs, I sift the list to ensure I don't take any mental spells I will use often as I can just grab them with 1 minute of time when I need it once per day. Which is about as often as I would ever need it.
Fully play a sorcerer and see all their feats. They are great. The ability to poach even a single spell for any list and change that spell as you level is a very powerful ability. Wizard has nothing like this with their feats. For some reason, they gave this ability to poach from other lists to sorcs and bards.
I explored more spells on a sorcerer from more lists than I ever did playing a PF2 wizard because I had to sift all four lists for good spells and sift every mental spell for occult and with arcane you try something new to see if you want to put it in a repertoire slot.
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One of the strengths for a Wizard (or any prepared caster) that I haven't seen listed yet is their ability to prepare any spell they know in any slot they want above minimum spell level. A spontaneous caster only gets one signature spell per level. A level 11 wizard, can decide today to prepare all their 6th level slots with chain lightning and heightened fireballs. Tomorrow, its disintegrate and dispel magic. Next day it's summon dragon....etc.
even if you don't have access to your whole spell list, the spells you do have access to are more flexible (from a day to day standpoint) than a spontaneous spellcaster.
You just forget that Druids and Clerics that knows all common spell exists too. With stronger chassis, focus spells, healing and many useful feats
Wizards doesn't looks bad because the people forget what they can do. Wizards are subpar because what they are and can do normally looks subpar when compared to the alternatives.
Why is shock to the system an occult spell? Is the occult tradition really just synonymous with “Somewhat creepy?”Because Occult is the new Arcane list absent energy blasts? I always here folks talking about how Occult can't blast, but they have mental, force, vitality, and void blasting as well as telekinetic blasting stuff. Occult has some blasting ability with all the other stuff they can do.
Occult is a great tradition for blasting especially for single target where are many spells that can blast and debuff. What occult miss is AoE in lower levels and the most traditional energy damage.
So if your objective is single target damage and debuff with some healing options this tradition is for you.
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I rate the lists more by impact spells than size.
...
I was intrigued by your list, but I couldn't really analyze it as written. So I reorganized it a bit. Thought I'd share.
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A D O P enlarge 2
A D O P haste 3
A D O P heroism 3
A D O P true target 7
A D O P foresight 9
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A D O P slow 3
A D O P vision of death 4
A D O P synesthesia 5
A D O P wails of the damned 9
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A D O P fireball 3
A D O P banishment 5
A D O P chain lightning 6
A D O P eclipse burst 7
A D O P sunburst 7
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A D O P charm 1
A D O P invisibility 2
A D O P invisibility sphere 3
A D O P mind reading ᵁ 3
A D O P clairvoyance 4
A D O P fly 4
A D O P invisibility curtain 4
A D O P magic passage ᵁ 5
A D O P wall of stone 5
A D O P mislead 6
A D O P teleport ᵁ 6
A D O P wall of force 6
A D O P proliferating eyes 9
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A D O P heal 1
A D O P soothe 1
A D O P regenerate 7
A D O P moment of renewal 8
I want to take advantage of this and put forward the opinion that no one asked for that Heroism and Foresight are not worth it!
Heroism as a 3rd rank spell is no longer very viable as you will basically get the same benefit that Bless provides, it makes much more sense for the ally to find a way to get a status buff like Bless than for you to spend 2-actions to give it +1 on an ally. Even the elevated versions of it aren't worth it. The problem is that you are spending actions that if you simply use them to attack the target directly would end up being more beneficial for combat than giving a small bonus to a single ally.
The situation table applies to Foresight. It's a 9th rank magic! You can conjure meteors on people's heads, but will you opt for a spell that gives an advantage on saves and a disadvantage to enemies that attack the target creature? It's better to blow up your enemies right away with this same resource than to spend time and resources on it.
=YuriP]Wizards doesn't looks bad because the people forget what they can do. Wizards are subpar because what they are and can do normally looks subpar when compared to the alternatives.
This is a very accurate statement in PF2.
I rate the lists more by impact spells than size.
...I was intrigued by your list, but I couldn't really analyze it as written. So I reorganized it a bit. Thought I'd share.
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A
DOP enlarge 2A
DO P haste 3
AD OPheroism 3A
DOPtrue target 7A D O
Pforesight 9-----
A
DO P slow 3A
DOPvision of death 4
ADOPsynesthesia 5
AD OPwails of the damned 9-----
A
DOP fireball 3A D O P banishment 5
A
DOP chain lightning 6A D
OP eclipse burst 7
ADOP sunburst 7-----
A
DO P charm 1A...
Interesting. I play a lot of occult and primal casters. I value what those lists can do highly.
I won't say Arcane is a bad list as that would be a falsehood. Rather I value what the Arcane list does the least because it has the narrowest uses focused on blasting and utility of various value. Whereas other lists can do blasting and utility while healing, buffing, and debuffing.
I even find the new Divine Wrath spell to be very powerful now that it affects all targets affected by spirit damage.
You have some......I rate the lists more by impact spells than size.
...I was intrigued by your list, but I couldn't really analyze it as written. So I reorganized it a bit. Thought I'd share.
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A
DOP enlarge 2A
DO P haste 3
AD OPheroism 3A
DOPtrue target 7A D O
Pforesight 9-----
A
DO P slow 3A
DOPvision of death 4
ADOPsynesthesia 5
AD OPwails of the damned 9-----
A
DOP fireball 3A D O P banishment 5
A
DOP chain lightning 6A D
OP eclipse burst 7
ADOP sunburst 7-----
A
DO P
First, that was hardly a full list. So don't pretend it was.
The arcane list is missing healing and some major spells like heroism and synesthesia. The original idea behind my post is to clearly show Arcane is missing some really big hitting spells that you can get on other lists along with the rest which why number of impact spells is the better way to evaluate a list.
The Arcane list has the most blast spells and utility spells. It has no healing. Is missing the best buff in the game. It is missing the best debuff in the game.
The skewed way I look at combat? Not even sure what that even means. I like difficult, involved, optimized combat.
Weird to me Deriven doesn't have battlefield control as a category. Do you not use spells to separate enemies and create choke points?
Weird to me Deriven doesn't have battlefield control as a category. Do you not use spells to separate enemies and create choke points?
I listed walls under utility spells in the original post. There are other control spells as well. Primal has a lot of battlefield control spells that can also do damage.
The original post was just some spells off the top of my head, not a thorough listing. It was to give an illustration that the Arcane list known for its number of spells shares those spells with a bunch of other lists while at the same lacking certain power spells you find on the other lists.
I rate the Arcane list tied with Divine and Occult and Primal number one and two. None of the lists are bad, just my personal rating.
1: Occult: It's the new arcane. It has nearly everything and can fill nearly every role plus some really powerful unique spells and when a sorcerer is occult, they can add key quality spells from any other lists really making this list supreme.
2: Primal: The healing and condition removal really make this list slightly ahead of divine and arcane for me because it allows you to fill the healer and blaster role and quite a bit more with the same list. It's also attached to very good classes like a wisdom caster druid.
3 tied: Arcane and Divine: Both still very good lists with Divine having more healing, great buffing, and great summons and Arcane having great blasting and utility including battlefield control with walls and such.
None of the lists are bad. I want to make that clear.
This list discussion only comes up because wizard players keep bringing up the size of the Arcane Spell list as some kind of major advantage for the wizard like the sorcerer/wizard list was in PF1, but it isn't an advantage.
Even when you read Gortle's Spell discussion, you can see some of the very best spells in the game are on the occult list including the unique synesthesia. The occult list can literally do everything. It lacks nothing but energy blasting for the most part, which really doesn't matter much as you can force, void, and mental blast away.
My basic point is the Arcane list is not an advantage to the wizard class. The occult list is just as good if not better. Primal has tons of blasting with heals and condition removal while also being attached to very powerful class chassis like the druid and sorcerer.
And the even bigger kicker is even if Arcane was great, the sorcerer can take the arcane list and poach spells from the other lists while also having a spellbook and up to 45 spells known that it can cast spontaneously with at least 9 signature spells.
The big problem of the Arcane spell list is that it's forbid to have healing spells if wasn't this point it would be in par with other traditions.
Outside this limitation all traditions are well rounded. For example, making a comparison of rank 7th instant damage spells (because are easier to compare):
So all traditions have access to a big diversity of instant damage spells. Some stronger while others that are weaker can debuff the targets or avoid friend fire. With primal having more options and occult less (but occult have many others debuff and utility spells that I don't mentioned here) while the arcane as already mentioned lacks of healing spells at all.
I'm quite aware that isn't any of the full lists. Like I said according to the list that was put up you're statements are incorrect. And yes your skewed way of looking at combat, optimization is based on what you are trying to achieve. I love difficult combat, but every GM is different and what is optimized will change from game to game.
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I made my statements clear a second time and now a third time. The Arcane list is not an advantage to the wizard. I pointed out what the arcane list lacked which was heroism, synesthesia, and all healing. Which was on the other lists along with blasting and other spells shared by the list. The unique spells or healing on the other is very high impact, more so than blasting.
You make it sound like it's just missing a few spells. It's not just a few spells, it's some of the very best spells in the game.
To further illustrate, Arcane fills fewer roles than the other lists and thus leads to low variety in group composition when creating parties.
No, combat doesn't change which is why it is the main thing I discuss on these forums. It is the touchstone for all of us because the combat rules are more codified than the other rule systems. How people run combat or build encounters or roleplay can change, but the way combat works doesn't. The rules are set and they work from table to table. A DM has to purposefully work against a tactic to make it fail leaving them a very narrow path of encounter building and creation to overcome quality tactics.
You can walk into 99 percent of the games out there and use the advice I give people to dominate combat. Which is why I ramp combat up because I don't like the players to win too easily when I GM. The normal setting for these games if you employ standard encounter design is medium to low difficulty, even for a severe encounter. And PF2 is better than its predecessors at making the game at least a little tough, but its still not quite as difficult as I like it.