How much turtle is TOO much turtle?

[Oli Ironbar]

Looking to do a Helpful Halfling bodyguard (+4 AC as AoO) character that goes into Blundering Defense with Osyluth Guile (additional +4 or +5 later), but I'm not sure when I want to increase their damage output in between.

It's good advice is to strike first and strike hard, but the mental sketch is that of a professional dancer thrown into the adventuring world, so I won't start the build with top tier attack and damage. (And also my friends might be tired already of my shenanigans in our games that end combats quickly.)

So with all this mind, what benchmarks would you set for yourself for such a character in terms of To Hit and Damage by levels 4, 8, and 12?

Thank you all!
(also PFS rules is baseline, but non-PFS and 3PP is case by case)

[MrCharisma]

For benchmarks I generally use THIS TABLE. There's a link at the top to explain it, but essentially you want to aim for the green numbers, which represent a ~70% chance of success in whatever that number is for. If you drop below the orange number you'll bave trouble, and if you go over the blue number you're probably overdoing it and gaining less benefit compared to the effort you've put in - consider spending your resources elsewhere. I like this table precisely because it has parameters for "overkill".

Having said that, you don't necessarily need to hit the regular benchmarks if you havr a build that helps in other ways. Wizards don't really need to be able to hit enemies, they can rely on saves or just summon something to do the hitting for them. In this case, if you can boost your allies' defences then you might be able to prevent damage more by that method than by killing enemies. Action economy isn't really about getting more actions, it's about getting more actions *than your opponent*. If you can reliably deny their actions then you've helped your team win the action economy, which usually wins the encounter. Denying enemy actions doesn't necessarily mean stopping them from acting, it can also mean rendering their actions useless, such as upping your allies' AC to the point where the enemy reliably misses. Just remember that there are ways to bypass AC, so you might want to bufff things other than AC.

[Ooc](Sorry I had more to say but I'm falling asleep so that'll so do.)[/url)

[Oli Ironbar]

MrCharisma wrote:

Just remember that there are ways to bypass AC, so you might want to bufff things other than AC.

Really good chart and great advice!

I just found the feat Butterfly's Sting that fits nicely with the concept, so that could be a huge boost to our offense without requiring as much investment in damage.

[Azothath]

if you look too tough the foe is just going to attack your 'client'. Later at mid levels with multiple attacks per round and spells your bodyguard may not be able to intercede.
Crane style may stop 1 atk/rd.
Riposte is similar.

A tricky friendly wizard casting spells on you is your best defense, and a life oracle in his pocket ain't bad either...

[I grok do u]

As MrCharisma notes, Derklord's bench press spreadsheet is great.
Are you using brawler's battle dancer archetype? That will let you play an active flanking partner and generally helpful while giving you a natural damage progression. Maybe dip monk (scaled fist maybe if you boost CHA) to grab stunning fist, so you can also contribute with debuffs.

[Oli Ironbar]

Good things to think about, I'll post a version after this draft.

[Name Violation]

Also, you can boost that +4 bodyguard into a much bigger number.
The Benevolent armor special ability is the easiest way

[Oli Ironbar]

I haven't worked out all the stats, but for a Halfling with a waveblade, it seems to go from focusing on aid another for attacks at low levels, then crit fishing with Butterfly's Sting starting at 8.

(GM hasn't OK'd everything, but it is fun to dream...)

---

1 Scaled Fist/ Soul Shepherd - Combat Reflexes, Bodyguard
^-- really rough level with no Wpn Finesse
2 Virtuous Bravo (Pali) - Smite 1/day
3 SF/SS - DR 2, Dodge, Crane Style
4 V. Bravo - Divine Grace, Lay on Hands 1d6

AC for Adjacent Allies = +4

5 V. Bravo - Aura of Courage, Divine Health, Nimble, Crane Wing
6 V. Bravo - Smite 2/day, Deeds, LoH 2d6
7 Lore Warden (Fighter - PFS Field Guide) - Cautious Fighter, Blundering Defense
8 L. Ward. - Combat Expt., Butterfly's Sting

AC for Adjacent Allies = +4 aid, +4 luck (Blundering Defense)

9 G. Blade - Daring Teamwork (Blades Above and Below), Desperate Swing
10 G. Blade - Charmed Guardian 3/day
11 G. Blade - Critical Focus
12 G. Blade - Daring Teamwork (Overwhelm)

AC for Adjacent Allies = +4 aid, +4 luck (Blundering Defense)
Crit Fish with +8 to confirm (Desperate Swing + Crit Focus)

13 G. Blade - Swash. Weapon Training, Osyluth Guile

AC for Adjacent Allies = +4 aid, +6* luck (Blundering Defense + OG*)
Crit Fish with doubled range, +8 to confirm (Desperate Swing + Crit Focus)

---

The extra levels of Virtuous Bravo feel, well, extra, but there is a trick (nay, cheese) to turn Channels into Ki into Smites, so if I go that route, it is built in.

The later levels of Guided Blade also feel slow, but it would give the option of flanking from any adjacent ally against most creatures (ie. that aren't Large), which goes well with a menacing spiked gauntlet or such.

Ideas?
(edit for format)

[Oli Ironbar]

Aha! One level in Mouser Swashbuckler may have been the solution all along -- when combined with Butterfly's Sting, it moves the limited value of this character's crit damage to another party member who can make the most of it!

There are also a several places to drop in teamwork feats, but at the expense of being able to grant the feats to the party.

1 Mouser - Underfoot Assault, Swash. Finesse, Cautious Fighter
2 SFSS - Flurry, Dodge
3 uRogue - 1d6 sneak, trapfinding, Blundering Defense
4 uRogue - evasion, Ninja Trick (Crane Style)

AC for Adjacent Allies = +3, attack penalty -2

5 uRogue - 2d6 sneak, Finesse Training (Waveblade), Desperate Swing (or Team)
6 Lore W. - Crane Wing
7 Lore W. - Cmbt. Expt., Butterfly's Sting, Risky Striker (or Team)
8 uRogue - uncanny dodge, debilitating injury, Combat Trick (Osyluth Guile)

AC for Adjacent Allies = +7, attack penalty -2, +4 confirm crits, auto crit damage goes to next ally to hit enemy

9 SFSS - DR 2, Resist 5 cold/electric, Cmbt. Refl., Bodyguard
10 V. Bravo - Smite 1/day
11 V. Bravo - Divine Grace, Lay on Hands 1d6 + Oath of Charity, Critical Focus
12 Lore W. - Maneuver Defense

AC for Adjacent Allies = +11, attack penalty -2, +8 confirm crits, auto crit damage goes to next ally to hit enemy

13 Lore W. - Crane Riposte (or Team), Iron Will (or Team)
14 Lore W. - Weapon Training 1 + gloves of dueling
15 V. Bravo - Aura of Courage, Divine Health, Nimble, Piranha Strike (or Team)
16 V. Bravo - Smite 2/day, Deeds, LoH 2d6, Channel

Parry + Riposte, AC for Adjacent Allies = +11, attack penalty -2, +8 confirm crits, auto crit damage goes to next ally to hit enemy

17+ SFSS - Ki Pool, Channel Ki

all of the above + unlimited Ki/Smites with enough Tea of Transference + Channel Ki (although the arsenic from the realgar in it is probably bad for your health)