Homebrew character class: The Sneakspell [?]

[will_asher]

I really wanted a spellcasting rogue class. One that isn't a Bard, Magus, or Alchemist etc., but a spellcasting rogue which focusses in a lot of the same kind of things a stereotypical rogue focusses on but uses some different methods. Also, I've always wanted a character who could sneakily cast spells without other people noticing that he's casting a spell.
(I'd like a better name for the class, but I haven't thought of one yet.)
Basically what I did was I took the Rogue (and a bit of unchained Rogue), removed his sneak attacks and decent BAB, and added Bard-level spellcasting and 1-2 other appropriate features. Maybe there's an archetype that does something similar here too. I haven't looked closely at all the archetypes.
I'd kind of like to give them the sneaky casting feature earlier, but it seems like a powerful ability that might break things if they get it too early.

Sneakspell

Hie Die: d6 (or d8 depending on how strong it seems otherwise, I'm not sure yet.)

Class skills: same as Rogue plus: Spellcraft, knowledge-arcana, fly.
Skill ranks per level: 6.

Base attack bonus: slow. (same as Sorcerer)

Good saves: Reflex and will.

Spellcasting: mostly as Bard: Spontaneous casting using Charisma, same spells/day and spells known charts, but may learn any spell of the appropriate levels from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. (I didn't want to take the time to create a new spell list, but I may do that later.)

Weapon/armor proficiencies: same as Rogue.
Armor & magic interaction as Bard (can use light armor without penalty), except that shields still give a spell failure chance.

Class features by level:
L1: Choose between: Trapfinding (as Rogue)

L2: Trap Sense +1 (as Rogue)

L3: Evasion

L4: Rogue Talent (mostly as Rogue: SneakSpells cannot choose Rogue talents that apply solely or primarily to Sneak Attacks or Alchemist Bombs. They also cannot take any talent that grants the use of a spell as a spell-like ability (like minor magic or major magic), but they can take Combat Casting, or a Metamagic Feat in place of a Rogue talent. A Sneakspell can also gain a Familiar in place of a Rogue Talent which works like a wizard's familiar.)

L5: Uncanny Dodge

L6: Trap Sense +2. Rogue's Edge (as Unchained Rogue feature except must choose from the following skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Sense Motive, Slight of Hand, Spellcraft, Stealth, Use Magic Device.)

L7: Sneaky Casting: When casting a spell, may roll a Bluff check to prevent others from being able to tell that you're casting a spell. (Opposed by an observer's Sense Motive check. Another spellcaster may also notice the spell being cast using Perception (against the SneakSpell's bluff check), but Arcane spellcasters get -2 to the Perception check, and Divine spellcasters get -4 to the check.)

L8: Rogue Talent

L9: Trap Sense +3. Debilitating Injury: Despite not getting the sneak attack feature, whenever a Rogue would be able to Sneak Attack, a SneakSpell can inflict a Debiltating injury along with an attack or damaging touch spell. Otherwise the same as the Unchained Rogue feature except that the bonuses increase at L14 and L18 (instead of 10 and 16).

L11: Improved Uncanny Dodge. Improved Sneaky Casting: Whenever the target of a spell does not notice the spell being cast because of Sneaky Casting: if the spell does damage, it does 1d6 more. Otherwise, the save DC goes up by 1.

L12: Trap Sense +4, Rogue Talent (Advanced: As an Advanced Rogue talent, the Sneakspell can choose one Metamagic feat he has, when using that metamagic feat, it's spell slot is increased by 1 less than it would normally be because of the metamagic feat (minimum 0)).

L13: Rogue Edge

L14: (Debilitating Injury). Rogue Talent (Advanced)

L15: Trap Sense +5. Improved Sneaky casting (+2d6 or +2 to save DC).

L17: Rogue Talent (Advanced). Rogue's Edge

L18: Trap Sense +6. (Debilitating Injury)

L19: Rogue Talent (Advanced). Improved Sneaky casting (+3d6 or +3 to save DC).

L20: Master Strike (as Rogue except without sneak attack damage). Rogue Talent (advanced)

[Dasrak]

It seems to me like you're looking for the Eldritch Scoundrel. It's almost exactly what you just described, except it's Intelligence-based spellbook casting and much, much better. Definitely use the Eldritch Scoundrel as a basis for what a 6-level Rogue/caster hybrid should look like.

Eldritch Scoundrel is pretty well-balanced. It's a little underpowered at level 1 and 2 (where it just feels like a weak Wizard) but once you get to 3rd level and get sneak attack and finesse training it's pretty solid. It's a little weak in combat, but makes up for that with the versatility of spellcasting. Your class is just much too weak; either it needs to move to 9-level spellcasting (in which case it should just be a Sorcerer archetype) or it needs to move to 3/4 BAB and gain more class features (in which case it should probably just be a Rogue archetype).

The only thing that your Sneakspell does that you wouldn't be able to find elsewhere is the Sneaky Casting ability. There isn't great support in 1st party Pathfinder for this kind of hidden spellcasting. The feats that do exist are bad and many are very unclear about how they work. There is definitely precedent to just homebrew a better and clearer version of these feats, and if you want to homebrew something that's what I'd focus on.

My personal ruling (different tables may vary, as Paizo never really clarified this) is that spell manifestations have the same level of concealment as the caster. This means that a successful stealth check plus the Silent spell metamagic is sufficient to hide spellcasting from onlookers.

[will_asher]

Cool. Well, thanks for pointing me to that archetype. I really didn't expect for there to be an official archetype that would add spellcasting to a class that didn't have it. So I'll just scrap this class and tweak the archetype to my liking.

On one hand, I didn't feel like taking the time to look through all the archetypes to find exactly what I'm looking for. On the other hand, looking through all the archetypes likely takes less time than creating a new well-balanced character class...

I didn't realize this class was that weak either. I thought the combination of the Rogue's skills and most of his features with a 6-level spellcasting would be strong enough to warrant a slow BAB. maybe not.

[Dasrak]

will_asher wrote:

I didn't realize this class was that weak either. I thought the combination of the Rogue's skills and most of his features with a 6-level spellcasting would be strong enough to warrant a slow BAB. maybe not.

Keep in mind that a Wizard/Rogue multiclass gets class skill in almost every skill in the game, and since their Intelligence modifier is very large they will likely have more skill ranks than a single-class Rogue. With only 1 level of multiclassing, a Wizard can already get this kind of skill selection, and can then enter Arcane Trickster prestige class afterwards.

[Azothath]

I did a Rogue 2 Wiz(trans) 9, it was okay. I prefer spellcasting but it worked well for the character concept. Shadow projection with a +1 ghost touch rapier, casting spells (eschew materials), a certain ring of speaking, regen 1/hr, etc. IMO Arcane Trickster PrC isn't worth it.

Mage-killer build, Flowing Monk 2, Wiz Diviner N

[Dasrak]

Azothath wrote:

I did a Rogue 2 Wiz(trans) 9, it was okay. I prefer spellcasting but it worked well for the character concept. Shadow projection with a +1 ghost touch rapier, casting spells (eschew materials), a certain ring of speaking, regen 1/hr, etc. IMO Arcane Trickster isn't worth it.

Keep in mind that with the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat you can enter Arcane Trickster with only a single level of Rogue.

[Melkiador]

Dasrak wrote:

Azothath wrote:

I did a Rogue 2 Wiz(trans) 9, it was okay. I prefer spellcasting but it worked well for the character concept. Shadow projection with a +1 ghost touch rapier, casting spells (eschew materials), a certain ring of speaking, regen 1/hr, etc. IMO Arcane Trickster isn't worth it.

Keep in mind that with the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat you can enter Arcane Trickster with only a single level of Rogue.

Yeah, if you want to be more caster than rogue, that’s a really good option.

There are a ton of pre-existing archetypes that do a lot of niche things. If the OP has any more class ideas, they could just ask the community beforehand if there is anything like that. Of course, just making classes can be a lot of fun, regardless. I enjoy making them too.

This was my experiment to do something very new but also very simple.