Looking to see if there is consensus on the meaning of the crunch text:
You gain a +1 trait bonus on Acrobatics, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, and Ride checks with class skills if you spend twice as long as it normally takes to make that check.
my question is, what is the meaning of "with class skills"
Do you only get the +1 trait bonus on the 6 skills (if you take twice as long to make the check) and if that skill is also a class skill for you?
hmm, as someone with a slight dyslexia that make me constantly need to re-read what I write in case I flipped the order of the words I think there might be a bit of disorder in that sentence. let's re-arrange the order of two words in the trait's info and see if that makes it clearer.
Instead of:
"You gain a +1 trait bonus on Acrobatics, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, and Ride checks with class skills if you spend twice as long as it normally takes to make that check."
lets try:
"You gain a +1 trait bonus on Acrobatics, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, Ride and checks with class skills if you spend twice as long as it normally takes to make that check."
the fact that in the original text it's written as ", and" which I believe is the wrong way to write it in English -you are not supposed to use both "," and "and" one after the other, bolster my belief that it's a miss-order.
To conclude, I believe it's those 6 skills and any class skill that gain the benefit if you spend twice the time performing them.
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I thin that the meaning is:
You gain a +1 trait bonus on Acrobatics, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, and Ride checks that are class skills if you spend twice as long as it normally takes to make that check.
I.e.: I think it works only if the skills are class skills. It doesn't make them class skills when you spend more time performing them.
Honestly, I have problems seeing how you could spend more time performing some of those actions.
What does it mean "I spend twice the time making a Ride check"? Do you go slower?
Ride checks:
Task Ride DC
Guide with knees 5
Stay in saddle 5
Fight with a combat-trained mount 10
Cover 15
Soft fall 15
Leap 15
Spur mount 15
Control mount in battle 20
Fast mount or dismount 20
The checks listed above are done as part of a specific action or as an action. Doing it slower requires two actions?
Same thing for most Acrobatic checks.
I thin that the meaning is:
You gain a +1 trait bonus on Acrobatics, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, and Ride checks that are class skills if you spend twice as long as it normally takes to make that check.
I.e.: I think it works only if the skills are class skills. It doesn't make them class skills when you spend more time performing them.
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in your answer you still have the problem of ", and" which is the wrong way to write it.
and you need to add words to make it clear.I think my answer which just switch the order of two words and while at it so also set right the grammar of ", and" is more likely.
as for how to use some of these skills with double time, I'd say those which can't be doubled just can't have the bonus applied to them. the bonus happen WHEN you use double the time to do something, not being able to spend the extra time also mean you do not gain the benefit.
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the fact that in the original text it's written as ", and" which I believe is the wrong way to write it in English -you are not supposed to use both "," and "and" one after the other, bolster my belief that it's a miss-order.
While I definitely agree that the trait is confusingly written ", and" is the right way to write it. It's called the "Oxford Comma" (When you have a list of items use commas to separate them - including a comma before the "and" or "or" that indicates the final item of the list.) While the Oxford Comma is considered optional in English grammar it is Paizo's standard for their writing style.
For example:
We are having Salisbury steak, mashed potatoes, green beans, and apple pie for lunch.
Having said that - the most likely intention of the trait is that in only applies to Acrobatics, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, and Ride if they are also class skills.
ha, never know that.
English is not my main language and in mine using a coma at the list's end before an 'and' or 'or' is a grammar mistake.
Just prove to me again that English grammar is bogus ;) (every rule it has have an exception!)
Paizo's comma placement is atrocious. There is a comma splice in a huge percentage of published traits.
I'm working on a foundry pf1 trait inclusion project and have reviewed over 1500 of them so far. I'd estimate there are over 1000 traits with comma splices.
The use of the comma here is actually correct. Ironically, the correctness of the comma placement is, in the grander context that virtually none of their traits correctly use commas, the best support for zza ni's version.
I wish they had used Diego's change to clarify "that are" as it would have been much clearer.
I think that's the best reading but the text is, at best, inelegantly worded in the sourcebook.
This trait seems to be mainly giving the character a bonus for taking time out of combat to perform the tasks. The list for Ride is mostly reactive combat uses, so will not gain the benefit of the trait.
Stay in Saddle, Fight with a combat-trained mount, cover, soft fall, control your mount in battle, fast mount or dismount would not gain any benefit.
I can see guiding with knees and leaping being able to benefit from the trait. The way I would handle it would be to have guiding with your knees take your standard action, and leaping would be a full round action for the mount.
The real use for riding would be in performing intricate maneuvers. This is not something that is covered much in the rules.
I read it that it has to be one of those listed skills and also a class skill for the PC.
But yeah, a good example of bad writing!
Just judging by the typical power of traits, I'd assume it is just those 6 skills if you meet the other two criteria of class skill and double time.
Just judging by the typical power of traits, I'd assume it is just those 6 skills if you meet the other two criteria of class skill and double time.
This.
Most traits that improve skills give a +1 in that skill (and make it a class skill if it isn't). So up to +4 total.
zza ni version would be a +1 to a minimum of 6 skills (the 6 listed) plus all class skills which do not overlap would be another ~6+. +1 to 12 different skills is probably not the intended effect. Even with the penalty of taking double time.
Also skills like appraise, knowledge, perception, don't really fit in well with the flavor of the trait
Though others think you merely waste time, you know that those extra flourishes and ceremonial touches actually make your work just that much better.
If I flick my wrist just right while holding this ruby I am better able to determine its value?
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If I flick my wrist just right while holding this ruby I am better able to determine its value?
After Pageant of the Peacock "I bluff the universe and my reply is right" I have no trouble thinking that someone wanted to allow that.
It always reminds me of a player inventing a story about the six sexes of the Beholders after failing a Knowledge check and then Wizard of the Coast published a supplement that more or less supported it.
If I flick my wrist just right while holding this ruby I am better able to determine its value?After Pageant of the Peacock "I bluff the universe and my reply is right" I have no trouble thinking that someone wanted to allow that.
It always reminds me of a player inventing a story about the six sexes of the Beholders after failing a Knowledge check and then Wizard of the Coast published a supplement that more or less supported it.
I wouldn't count a +4 to bluff as "I bluff the universe and my reply is right".
But the swap bluff for int skills could be pretty ridicoulus. Bardic knowledge might make that overkill, but archetypes that lose bardic knowledge could get great use out of it. Or even with bardic knowledge, it would be a very good way to allow skill point expenditure elsewhere.
I still think the halfling trait is probably meant to be the the six skills if they are also class skills. But I am less confident of that being correct now :)