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How close to maximum does a stat need to be for the skills keyed to it to stay relevant?
This one is something that varies depending on what you're using the skill for, but it tends towards much less investment being required than one might think. If you want it to stay at the relevancy of low-level play, we can compare the maxed-out skill modifier at 1st level of +7 to the 1st level DC of 15, a 65% success chance. The 20th level DC is 40, so we need a +32 for the same success chance; trained gives us +22 on its own, so you need to get +10 from your choice of:
- Up to a +3 item bonus, costing you money and investment slots- Up to a +6 extra proficiency bonus, going from Expert to Legendary
- Up to a +7 bonus from your ability modifier
So, for the same success chance as the best you can get at 1st-level, you could max-out the attribute and purchase a +3 item, but keep it at trained. Alternatively, you could get to Expert, max-out the attribute, and buy a +1 item. If you don't have the ability boosts as easily available, you could go to Legendary, have a +2 ability modifier, and get a +2 item bonus. As a general point of comparison, if you start with a +1 or +2 ability modifier for the skill, get it to expert through a skill raise or an archetype, and get an out-of-date item bonus for it, you'll be at least maintaining your chance of success.
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Leveraging Animal Empathy,Maxing DCs for Psychic/Bard Dedication spellcasting and 3 combat relevant skills keying off it made me think Charisma as the 4th maxed out stat for Druids.
This leads to a crunchy question.
How close to maximum does a stat need to be for the skills keyed to it to stay relevant?
Will Lore skills ever be worth using if you dump Int?
Will Trip be a viable third action if Strength stays at 14(for medium armor)?
Will Demoralize,Bon Mot,or Feint be worth doing if Chsrisma isnt being maxed out?
I think Lore can still be decent even if the stat isn't maxed because the roll is lower for unspecific and specific lore which lowers the DC and the skill feat to automatically advanced Lore to Legendary means it will always be maxed.
Depends on the combat maneuver. Combat maneuvers that go against Reflex may not require a maxed stat as item bonuses with debuffing often are enough to make Trip land. I think it would be harder against Fort save combat maneuvers because Fort is higher more often than Reflex. It would be hard to parse out.
I think you would be ok with will based skills without a maxed stat. There are item bonuses and debuffs. They don't affect MAP so you can use them as often as you feel like within the limitation. So you don't care if they fail here and there unlike combat maneuvers which affect MAP meaning a fail is costly. So for a third action to do an intimidate or bon mot is perfectly viable.
Thank you Arcaian and Deriven.
Are there known feat/skill/attribute/equipment expenditures for optimizing Medicine,⁰⁰Trip,Demorilize,or Bon Mot?
Im thinking that having a prepackage set of optimization that can be added to any character would help with optimized team building.
Suppose each PC has a secondary role to fill and there is a list of choices that, if taken, willinsure a satisfactory level of competency in that role.
Medicine is take the standard stuff you need. I like the Medic Archetype as it gets your Medicine up quickly allowing you to get the bookkeeping feats out of the way.
Bon Mot is built off Diplomacy. So boost your Diplomacy off and use Bon Mot to set up will save spells.
Trip is about choosing a weapon or fighting style that has trip on the weapon or unarmed attack so the item bonus from your weapon adds. The barbarian has a nice feat giving a +2 circumstance bonus to combat maneuvers while raging. Brutal Bully I believe it is called. The barbarian can be built to be the king of maneuvers.
The monk has nice feats for mixing maneuvers up within a flurry, which enhances combat maneuver action economy. Rippling Wave Stance monks are one of the best trip characters in the game in my experience as that fighting style adds Trip to unarmed Strikes and a +1 circumstance bonus to trip.
Those are the main optimizations around trip I've seen.
Wrestler for grappling looks interesting, but I've never really tried grappling. Grapping is strange to me in that escaping isn't a move action and thus doesn't provoke AoOs limited grappling's value. If escaping a grappled provoked Reactive Strikes, it would be on par with trip and possibly better. I know some folks like shove builds with reach weapons to provoke AoOs, but I've found shoving a target out of range during your turn isn't a great idea and trying shove later in the round is not a recipe for consistent success. Trip by default is the optimal maneuver for these reasons.
This leads to a crunchy question.
How close to maximum does a stat need to be for the skills keyed to it to stay relevant?
Will Demoralize,Bon Mot,or Feint be worth doing if Chsrisma isnt being maxed out?
as Arcaian already pointed out, that depends on what you use them for.
but any skill like Demorolize where you compare to the monsters stats every +1 matters, so then its a liability to not have you stat at maximum.
can it work sure, but you lower your success and crit rate drastically with each +1 missing.
when its skills vs fixed DC's of skill challenges like climbing and jumping its more lenient and missing a point or 2 wont matter as mutch.
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Rippling Wave Stance monks are one of the best trip characters in the game in my experience as that fighting style adds Trip to unarmed Strikes and a +1 circumstance bonus to trip.
I was wondering why you would need the trip trait on unarmed attacks, but i guess you would not get the +1/+2/+3 due to handwraps of mighty blows.
A lifting belt etc will grant the same item bonus though, but the +1 circumstance is unique for the stance, and every +1 matters.Wrestler for grappling looks interesting, but I've never really tried grappling. Grapping is strange to me in that escaping isn't a move action and thus doesn't provoke AoOs limited grappling's value. If escaping a grappled provoked Reactive Strikes, it would be on par with trip and possibly better.
The wrestler archetype has you covered, Clinch Strike is a reaction that allows an unarmed strike if your target escapes.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=3398
I might try a barbarian wrestler at some point or maybe a fighter. It looks like it could be brutal single target boss killing melee build. Fairly limited character, but very effective within that tight range.
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Whirling throw is a unique ability (for monk and wrestler) insofar that it does not need an extra attack roll and allows rather long distances compared to shove or most other . If there is any dangerous terrain, it can be a game changer.
Throwing a boss into churning turbines changed a nearly lost fight into a win for us in Alkenstar. Just make sure they used their reaction first, grab an edge still exists.
Whirling throw is a unique ability (for monk and wrestler) insofar that it does not need an extra attack roll and allows rather long distances compared to shove or most other . If there is any dangerous terrain, it can be a game changer.
Throwing a boss into churning turbines changed a nearly lost fight into a win for us in Alkenstar. Just make sure they used their reaction first, grab an edge still exists.
I agree that that's how it should work, but technically Whirling Throw is not a push and therefore (as far as I can tell) can't be used to send enemies into hazardous terrain/off cliffs/whatever.
If you're pushed or pulled, you can usually be moved through hazardous terrain, pushed off a ledge, or the like. Abilities that reposition you in some other way can't put you in such dangerous places unless they specify otherwise.
Trip is about choosing a weapon or fighting style that has trip on the weapon or unarmed attack so the item bonus from your weapon adds
Im guessing a Aklys or Whip would be the main choices, with Bolo or Shield Augmentations as specilized alternatives?
Is it true that being proficient in the weapon doesn't matter for doing Athletics based maneuvers?
Is Titan Wrestler worthwhile for tripping or is a creature that much bigger than you likely to strong to Trip anyways?
Trip is about choosing a weapon or fighting style that has trip on the weapon or unarmed attack so the item bonus from your weapon addsIm guessing a Aklys or Whip would be the main choices, with Bolo or Shield Augmentations as specilized alternatives?
Is it true that being proficient in the weapon doesn't matter for doing Athletics based maneuvers?
Is Titan Wrestler worthwhile for tripping or is a creature that much bigger than you likely to strong to Trip anyways?
Tripping goes off Reflex. Generally, large creatures have low reflex saves and are thus easier to trip.
Yes. Titan Wrestler is a must for trip.
With an an enlarge spell or some way to get a size larger, you can trip anything that isn't immune with Titan Wrestler.