I know that there is already an in depth thread about the paladin in the current state of PF. I would like to take this thread and focus it solely on the paladins smite ability.
I personally feel and think that many would agree that this is the defining ability of paladins (as far as combat goes). This is where they should shine, and they quite frankly do not.
There were many good ideas on how to fix this in the paladin thread. I want to see if anyone else has a positive idea on how to fix this.
I will list my fix here again as I personally think that it makes smite work just like it should.
Smite Evil: Every attack a paladin makes is with the focused holy energy of his faith. He is attempting to rid the world of evil with every strike. Thus with every attack a paladin makes against an evil opponent he adds his charisma bonus to his attack roll and half his paladin level to his damage roll.
This brings paladins up to the melee damage = of fighters (possibly barbarians) but only when facing evil opponents.
I really wanted to post this again because I feel that this is the fix paladins need. The more I have thought about it the more I have realized that this single fix would satisfy me. I know there are a few other things that could use a "twink" but this change would be more than enough to make me feel that paladins have finally become the holy warriors that they are supposed to be.
I hope the developers take a close look at this ability and PLEASE adjust it so that paladins can still be combatants, not just observers!
Any input would be appreciated.
I'd change the "once per day" to "once per encounter". This way, even when you get more, you stay 3.5 compatible. This way, Paladins will shine as much as rogue's Sneak Attack in every combat.
- Zorg
Unfortunately this breaks backward compatibility with feats and abilities that are based on the number of Smite Evil uses per day.
I'm currently of the mind that CHA+1/day uses at first level with the existing progression with a use not extended on a miss and applying the rules for holding a charge (it's active till it hits) are sufficient for uses while allowing feats and abilities that grant additional uses.
Keeping the +CHA to hit only on a smite is fine but I could see a damage increase to 2/Paladin level.
In the "core" there are no feats or any other "bonus" that you can use to increase or change your smite ability in any way. There are plenty of other topics on here that disregard the use of "splat" books. I dont think that this change would hinder backwards compatibility at all. And even if it did, the change is "better" so why would anyone complain that they could not take such and such feat any longer when they already have an improved ability.
Even with more uses per day you are still limiting the paladin to the point of being a bystander. At level 1 with an 18 Char that would be 5 smites a day. In the game I am currently playing we probably have 2 to 3 encounters a session and my character generally makes approximately 50 attacks a night (give or take). That would still only account for 10% of my attack ability (which is currently wasted on a miss, which unfortunately happens a lot). The point is, that when fighting evil the paladin should be a force, something that is not simply overlooked as a nuisance.
Then as far as increasing the damage to 2X paladin level makes the paladin the "boss killer". That means that paladins are going to save their precious few smites a day for the big boss man. This ability should not be saved for only the biggest meanies...it should work for ALL evil.
I'd change the "once per day" to "once per encounter". This way, even when you get more, you stay 3.5 compatible. This way, Paladins will shine as much as rogue's Sneak Attack in every combat.
- Zorg
I think this is more on the right track, though I still think that an always on smite is more in line with what the paladin is. Though the rogue's sneak attack always works with the restriction of being limited to flanking. My suggestion is the same, that the paladins smite is limited to only evil characters. And with only 1/2 paladin level to damage it is no where near the bonus damage of a sneak attack (which is what 6-60 damage at lvl 20! wow!)
I do not see how this hinders backwards compatibility at all, with the notation of what I mentioned above.
If any of that came off as defensive I did not mean it that way to either poster. I am simply stating my reasoning for why I believe this to be the best option. I appreciate all the input and still hope that this issue is looked at closely by the devs because even if the change is not what I have suggested (im sure it wont be) I hope there is SOME change for the better.
You will also need to address the issue of the Paladin's Detect Evil power, to know when the smite evil always on ability works or not.
By that I mean, how does the paladin know if the target is evil? I am assuming with his detect evil power. But what about alignment masking spells/objects? Or in a big melee, are all the orcs evil, or are some neutral?
What happens if the paladin tries to use the smite evil ability on someone who is not evil? Or on a good aligned creature that is doing an evil act (or an apparently evil act)?
Well, smiting was (just like many other poaladin class features) somewhat challenging to use effectively (aehm... it sucked...)
The problem is that while it used the all important charisma of the paladin, it didn't do much with it.
In the other paladin topic I suggested stunning or some other effects, which definitely is tiptoeing around Warcraft, but it would be a nice thing for paladin to be able to keep his enemies in reach and not threatening the others. With extremely limited attacks per day (which, unlike some spells don't do THAT much) the paladin should also be hitting with them.
I'd either make the Smite Evil attack an automatic hit, or at least allow the palading to try again without losing the charge. I'd prefer the auto-hit, because it would allow the paladin to hit at crucial moment and even a super buffed wizard wouldn't be allowed to laugh at Paladin as he's waiting for natural 20.
I also wouldn't mind if the paladin actually multiplied the number of uses he gets in 3.5 by his charisma bonus (2*Cha bonus at 5th level, ...).
I don't have any problems with damage caused if there are more uses.
Aside from that if we want to make loosen Paladin's alignment restrictions then we may just turn this to smite infidel ability and assigh some juicy penalties to it if the ability is used against someone friendly to the faith. Detect Evil ability would have to changed to something like sense affinity.
This is roughly what I'd like to see:
Smite Evil(Ex)
A paladin can call upon divine power to grant him the ability to hit a foe with righteous might.
As standard action the paladin can make a Smite Evil attack with his weapon (1.), which automatically hits (2.) and causes additional damage equal to paladin class level. A Paladin may use this ability a number of times equal to his Cha bonus (minimum 1). Upon reaching 5th level he can use the ability number of times per day equal to twice his Cha bonus and increases the number every five levels thereafter up to 5*Cha bonus at level 20. The attack has no effect on nonevil foes, but paladin still loses one daily use by attempting to smite nonevil foe.
Possible additions
- The attacks rebounds back at paladin in case that he atempts to smite a good creature (3.).
- A creature affected by Smite Evil attack reels from the blow and must make a saving throw (Will? Fort?) against DC equal to 10 + paldin's Cha modifier + paladin class level / 5 or be dazed for one round.
1. Yes, ranged attacks could be allowed as well IMO, but I'd limit them to 1 range increment or even closer... 30 ft?
2. The paladin still rolls the attack to see whether he scored a critical hit or didn't fumble.
3. I can still see paladins testing alignment-detection protected foes with smite...
You will also need to address the issue of the Paladin's Detect Evil power, to know when the smite evil always on ability works or not.
By that I mean, how does the paladin know if the target is evil? I am assuming with his detect evil power. But what about alignment masking spells/objects? Or in a big melee, are all the orcs evil, or are some neutral?
What happens if the paladin tries to use the smite evil ability on someone who is not evil? Or on a good aligned creature that is doing an evil act (or an apparently evil act)?
Detect Evil has been talked about in another thread and it's effectiveness in its current state during combat is highly in question.
I would say to fix the "smiting an non evil foe" argument. The first smite against a non evil foe will cause the paladins holy power to be drained from his strike. Effectively doing no damage with that attack. After a paladin attempts to smite a non evil foe he can not attempt another smite for X amount of time (I think rounds would probably be the way to do it, make the paladin use his detect ability first before he just goes off smiting anything). Thus again the fix to detect evil should be addressed but in a different thread.
Well, smiting was (just like many other poaladin class features) somewhat challenging to use effectively (aehm... it sucked...)
The problem is that while it used the all important charisma of the paladin, it didn't do much with it.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **This is roughly what I'd like to see:
Smite Evil(Ex)A paladin can call upon divine power to grant him the ability to hit a foe with righteous might.
As standard action the paladin can make a Smite Evil attack with his weapon (1.), which automatically hits (2.) and causes additional damage equal to paladin class level. A Paladin may use this ability a number of times equal to his Cha bonus (minimum 1). Upon reaching 5th level he can use the ability number of times per day equal to twice his Cha bonus and increases the number every five...
Zmar I agree with you that the smite ability is FAR from up to snuff. But when I think about the always hitting ability you talked about it just does not feel right to me. And isnt it written somewhere that an ability that automatically hits can not crit? I for one think that you should have the ability to miss with your smite and to crit with it.
The biggest argument here has been with the amount per day, and we are getting up to the point where people are saying to multiply it. I think this is on the right track but if we get to enough times per day is it not effectively "always on". With this modification we can allow for many modifications and let the paladin feel like he is truly striking down evil with every attack.
I wont even get into all the modifications and different possibilities we could do with it this way. I would just like to see this the baseline ability first and foremost.
On another note, I know that my DM will not allow me to playtest this idea. He is going to go STRICTLY from the book. So if anyone gets a chance to play test this could you please post your thoughts on it?
Detect Evil has been talked about in another thread and it's effectiveness in its current state during combat is highly in question.
I would say to fix the "smiting an non evil foe" argument. The first smite against a non evil foe will cause the paladins holy power to be drained from his strike. Effectively doing no damage with that attack. After a paladin attempts to smite a non evil foe he can not attempt another smite for X amount of time (I think rounds would probably be the way to do it, make the paladin use his detect ability first before he just goes off smiting anything). Thus again the fix to detect evil should be addressed but in a different thread.
You still need to address how the smite evil power works, in such a way as to be able to answer how it knows there is evil? How does the smite power know that it was a non-evil and drain the "power" from the smite? What happens with spells and items that hide the alignment?
I can see evil creatures lining up to get items that hide their alignment if it will stop the smite evil power from working when the Paladins come to town.
I guess it would be a DC rolled by the DM to tell you if it has started to effect the subject yet. But if the alignment is concealed it should not restrict the further attempts, just not work for that hit until the DC is made so that the smite can be effective.
If you have to make it where the Detect evil must happen first and then you can start to smite then that is fine, still worth the change.
Again, we have to decide exactly how DE should work then.
Zmar I agree with you that the smite ability is FAR from up to snuff. But when I think about the always hitting ability you talked about it just does not feel right to me. And isnt it written somewhere that an ability that automatically hits can not crit? I for one think that you should have the ability to miss with your smite and to crit with it.
Specific overrides general, so crit/fumble can be included.
The biggest argument here has been with the amount per day, and we are getting up to the point where people are saying to multiply it. I think this is on the right track but if we get to enough times per day is it not effectively "always on". With this modification we can allow for many modifications and let the paladin feel like he is truly striking down evil with every attack.
If the paladin is to smite with every hit then I'd certainly lower the additional damage... (Cha bonus?)
If the paladin is to smite with every hit then I'd certainly lower the additional damage... (Cha bonus?)
Char bonus to hit still the same and the damage is only 1/2 of paladin level, rounded down. Thus a 9th lvl paladin with an 18 Char has a +4 to hit evil and a +4 to damage, again ONLY against evil.
|
The problem with more smiting is what some players do to it. Smite abilities add set damage to damage rolls and are therefor multiplied by various effects. Charging with a lance on horseback, spirited charges, critical hits, etc.
Paladins as they are presently are very powerful. They might not have the obvious damage output as rogues, but I don't see why they would be expected to?
Heck, by 5th level your immune to fear and all diseases, can smite evil twice per day, add your charisma bonus to all your saving throws, can cast spells, channel divine energy and summon a warhorse out of nothing.
The problem with more smiting is what some players do to it. Smite abilities add set damage to damage rolls and are therefor multiplied by various effects. Charging with a lance on horseback, spirited charges, critical hits, etc.
Paladins as they are presently are very powerful. They might not have the obvious damage output as rogues, but I don't see why they would be expected to?
Heck, by 5th level your immune to fear and all diseases, can smite evil twice per day, add your charisma bonus to all your saving throws, can cast spells, channel divine energy and summon a warhorse out of nothing.
And we are also not a "Threat" to anything. Especially with the reduction to Power attack. Yea we have a lot of neat abilities (that a paladin would have!) but we have one of the LOWEST scaling damage's in the game. Smite is supposed to be our definitive ability but it is quite simply not effective.
A paladin gives up a LOT of things with his code and LG alignment, why should he not be able to do a decent amount of damage to what he is meant to fight against, EVIL!
Char bonus to hit still the same and the damage is only 1/2 of paladin level, rounded down. Thus a 9th lvl paladin with an 18 Char has a +4 to hit evil and a +4 to damage, again ONLY against evil.If the paladin is to smite with every hit then I'd certainly lower the additional damage... (Cha bonus?)
Actually if I was working with nonstop smites then I'd take Cha bonus to damage and scale the attack bonus just like the number of smites (+1 at 1st, +2 at 5th, etc.). Just remember that this is just a bonus without name, so it stacks with what you have from spells and magic items. I don't think that Paladin should overpower a raging barbarian in sheer damage output, because he doesn't drop the AC and his immunities and other features are also in place. And as Paladin progresses in career I'd count on him to obtain a cloak of charisma and perhaps some ability increases along the way. If you fear that he won't do that much damage, then just remember that, as you suggest, it's no longer use limited.
I'm fine with Cha bonus multiplication of smites. It's certainly not "always on". You smite with one normal melee attack... I think that if we applied smite to a full attack, then we could be through all smites in five turns even on level 20...
|
|
That's what happens when your playing a slightly hybrid class like a paladin. Divine powers mixed with martial combat aren't going to make for the best damage dealer in the game. Still you get full BAB, and if you think tactically you can increase the damage done to things easily. After all your the one flanking with the rogue so he can get his sneak attack damage dice usually.
More seriously though, we do have access to both martial and divine feats as well. We may not channel energy as well as the cleric can, but our power can easily activate any feats that need it. I don't know if pathfinder has any yet, but 3.5 had some extremely nice feats that made being a paladin pretty awesome. Some of our spells are a bit ridiculous as well.
To be able to stand before a greater shadow and look over at the rest of the people at the table and go, "Don't worry guys, I got this" and solo the thing without losing a point of strength, I was pretty happy.
I guess I've never seen the smite evil class ability as the defining ability. I've more seen it our ability to survive a lot of things that other characters can't and stand as beacons of hope and justice. Just being that beacon tends to help us be a threat at times. I'm sure many of the most evil creatures that exist would ignore those pesky daggers stabbing at it's side to sink it's claws into such the bright symbol of justice and good that is the paladin.
Rely on core books only to chose the feats...
Char bonus to hit still the same and the damage is only 1/2 of paladin level, rounded down. Thus a 9th lvl paladin with an 18 Char has a +4 to hit evil and a +4 to damage, again ONLY against evil.If the paladin is to smite with every hit then I'd certainly lower the additional damage... (Cha bonus?)
Actually if I was working with nonstop smites then I'd take Cha bonus to damage and scale the attack bonus just like the number of smites (+1 at 1st, +2 at 5th, etc.). Just remember that this is just a bonus without name, so it stacks with what you have from spells and magic items. I don't think that Paladin should overpower a raging barbarian in sheer damage output, because he doesn't drop the AC and his immunities and other features are also in place. And as Paladin progresses in career I'd count on him to obtain a cloak of charisma and perhaps some ability increases along the way. If you fear that he won't do that much damage, then just remember that, as you suggest, it's no longer use limited.
I'm fine with Cha bonus multiplication of smites. It's certainly not "always on". You smite with one normal melee attack... I think that if we applied smite to a full attack, then we could be through all smites in five turns even on level 20...
I would be fine with Char bonus as the damage...Basically I think it should just be the main thing you see paladins doing in combat. As it stands it is just not that impressive, though it should be!
I want to FIGHT those evil things, not just be able to stand there and take a beating from it. Maybe there should be 2 versions of the paladin or 2 paths you can take, a smite focused one and the one there is now. I dont know...I just dont want to be the paladin standing there going yea guys, get it...kill that big nasty thing that I convinced you to come here to fight because I am the holy warrior who would want to hunt such things.
Literally with the changes that have been made a paladin's damage is going to see a severe hit, and that means that our "threat" level is going to go down the s!##ter. Enemies arnt even going to want to waste attacks on someone who cant hurt them.
That's what happens when your playing a slightly hybrid class like a paladin. Divine powers mixed with martial combat aren't going to make for the best damage dealer in the game. Still you get full BAB, and if you think tactically you can increase the damage done to things easily. After all your the one flanking with the rogue so he can get his sneak attack damage dice usually.
More seriously though, we do have access to both martial and divine feats as well. We may not channel energy as well as the cleric can, but our power can easily activate any feats that need it. I don't know if pathfinder has any yet, but 3.5 had some extremely nice feats that made being a paladin pretty awesome. Some of our spells are a bit ridiculous as well.
To be able to stand before a greater shadow and look over at the rest of the people at the table and go, "Don't worry guys, I got this" and solo the thing without losing a point of strength, I was pretty happy.
I guess I've never seen the smite evil class ability as the defining ability. I've more seen it our ability to survive a lot of things that other characters can't and stand as beacons of hope and justice. Just being that beacon tends to help us be a threat at times. I'm sure many of the most evil creatures that exist would ignore those pesky daggers stabbing at it's side to sink it's claws into such the bright symbol of justice and good that is the paladin.
I respect what you are saying, but you play in a completely different game than I do. My DM runs strictly to the core books. No splat books, no modifications. There is VERY little magic at all, and the gold we receive is minimal.
My point here is a paladin (and ALL classes) for that matter should work well because of the way the CLASS works, not because of anything you may have gained along the way. People talk all the time about how you should have this or that by this level. I should not be considered a valid and "capable" character because of the magic items I have or dont have. It should be because my class is balanced well and functions well for what it is supposed to do!
Paladins are supposed to fight EVIL! That is what they are supposed to be good at. You have to be able to do damage to do this, I am sorry that is just the way it works! As it stands now I would be better off playing a fighter in PF than a paladin to be able to do the things I want to do (fight evil!). This is where the paladin should shine, just as bright in all areas. When you are fighting against evil the paladin should be on even ground as all the other people in the party. When you are fighting things that are NOT evil the paladin should not be as capable.
I have no other way to express this, I do not understand the resistance to making the paladin a capable combatant. One that is as functional (again against evil) as every other class is against everything they fight. I dont want the paladins to put out more damage than fighters or barbarians. I just want them to put up respectable damage numbers when they fight the enemies they were BUILT to fight. *sigh*
Well, there are two ways I see with smiting.
1.) limited use -> huge bonuses to attack and damage
2.) unlimited use -> moderate bonuses to attack and damage
Not both. A Paladin facing an evil foe should be about a match for a raging barbarian of appropriate level in sheer offensive power (and be slightly more powerful than fighter) and be somewhat less useful when facing anything else (warrior-like). Definitely not more. Don't forget that the Paladin is still above average at defensive, quite unlike the barbarian and poissibly buffed by spells as well.
We need to keep an eye on overall balance. Not among the classes alone, but among the bonuses they bring to the party.
If we took all combat classes (in 4E terms defenders, ranger is really a secondary combatant IMO) into account than:
- the barbarian is the ultimate damage dealing machine focused on offensive for a limited amount of time. His defensive is lacking, but he has speed, endurrance and skills to compensate. For the group he offers a prospect of bringing the foe down quickly and thus conserving resources this way.
- the fighter is good overall combatant, with good offensive and defensive. His feats allow him to hinder the enemy in certain ways (trip, disarm,...) or give him a few tricks (affect multiple foes and so on). A fighter can help the group by limiting the opponent's ability to threaten the rest of the party and allowing the rest to do their part.
- the paladin has better deffensive, but his offensive efficiency is somewhat limited by the enemy he's facing. He has spells and group buffing abilities (auras) to compensate and healing to make him (and allies) last longer. He boosts group's offensive capacity a little, heals and negates certain enemy abilities.
As I'm thinking about it threre may be another type of smiting (or divine bond - ranger inspiration here). Since paladin is a group buffer (if we are not to think about it in gaming terms than he's an inspiring example for the others), he might give attack and damage bonuses to his allies withing certain area as well.
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
|
Smite Evil: Every attack a paladin makes is with the focused holy energy of his faith. He is attempting to rid the world of evil with every strike. Thus with every attack a paladin makes against an evil opponent he adds his charisma bonus to his attack roll and half his paladin level to his damage roll.
I like this. But as mentioned earlier, Detect Evil needs to be involved.
How about this:
Smite Evil: A Paladin may add his Charisma Bonus to attack rolls and +1/2 his Paladin level to damage rolls against evil opponents. To activate this ability, the Paladin must be aware that his opponent is evil. To do so, he must use a Standard Action to Detect Evil on his opponent. If the Paladin is unable to ascertain his opponent's alignment, or if his opponent is not evil, the Smite Evil ability can not be used against the opponent.
Thoughts?
This is all based on opinion, and as always, my opinion has a good chance of differing from others'.
Paladins to me are about fighting EVIL, not evil; they are the holly warriors on a crusade to battle the really really bad guys. Yes paladins would confront the local group of bandits when traveling through a town or village, or strike down the nasty oger waylaying travelers on the old souther road, but this is not what they DO. What they DO is ferret out information on the secret cult that's sprung up, assemble a band of adventurers to help them storm the lair, and while the fighter, rogue, and wizard are taking care of the humanoid cultists the paladin bravely charges into combat with the hulking hellspawn the cult summoned to unleash on the town. See the difference?
I don't think smite evil should be dependent on alignment, it should be dependent on creature type. Off the top of my head I would say unead and outsider, maybe aberation, yeah aberation too. Going along this path I would say the paladin uses some class based resource (chanel energy or something would be good, unfortunately I'm not very familiar with the PF paladin just yet) and either get the bonuses for a specific number of rounds, or possibly the whole encounter. My preference would be per encounter, as one less thing to keep track of durring a pitched exciting end battle is always good (did I turn my smite on last round or the round before?). That and it would be a little anticlimatic to tear into some massive greater evil for a few minutes, shouting holly scripture, hacking away at it with a glowing sword full of righteous energy to have it suddenly peter out half way through the fight. Though I guess it could be a matter of the paladin's faith wasn't enough to sustain him through the confrontation. Might lead into an interesting bit of character growth where s/he has to strugle for a while with the let down and self doubt (assuming they survived) to eventually developed a renewed dedication to their cause and all that when they level up and can smite harder for longer...
Either way, I'll go downstairs in a bit, read up on PF paladins, and come back up and post something with a little more crunch and see what people think...
Smite Evil: A Paladin may add his Charisma Bonus to attack rolls and +1/2 his Paladin level to damage rolls against evil opponents. To activate this ability, the Paladin must be aware that his opponent is evil. To do so, he must use a Standard Action to Detect Evil on his opponent. If the Paladin is unable to ascertain his opponent's alignment, or if his opponent is not evil, the Smite Evil ability can not be used against the opponent.
Thoughts?
I like this one, but I would go one step further.
If paladin uses his smite attempt on a person who is not evil, or didn't use Detect Evil on his opponent and tries to use smite evil on him, paladin violates his code of honor and can't use smite ability for 24 hours. (Because he used his own judgment not judgment he was granted by powers of Good).
Or just add double Charisma bonus on attacks. that should improve Paladin's attack chances with smite. Although I like Larry's idea better.
Will try it.
|
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
|
If paladin uses his smite attempt on a person who is not evil, or didn't use Detect Evil on his opponent and tries to use smite evil on him, paladin violates his code of honor and can't use smite ability for 24 hours. (Because he used his own judgment not judgment he was granted by powers of Good).
I REALLY like this idea. If we make it an at will/always on ability, the combination of a Standard Action Detect Evil and a 24 hour penalty for attempting to use it on a non-evil adversary helps balance it out.
Now we have:
Smite Evil: A Paladin may add his Charisma Bonus to attack rolls and +1/2 his Paladin level to damage rolls against evil opponents. To activate this ability, the Paladin must be aware that his opponent is evil. To do so, he must use a Standard Action to Detect Evil on his opponent. If the Paladin is unable to ascertain his opponent's alignment, or if his opponent is not evil, the Smite Evil ability can not be used against the opponent. If paladin attempts to use Smite Evil on an opponent without first using Detect Evil, the Paladin violates his code of honor and can't use Smite Evil for 24 hours.
Well, there are two ways I see with smiting.
1.) limited use -> huge bonuses to attack and damage
2.) unlimited use -> moderate bonuses to attack and damageNot both. A Paladin facing an evil foe should be about a match for a raging barbarian of appropriate level in sheer offensive power (and be slightly more powerful than fighter) and be somewhat less useful when facing anything else (warrior-like). Definitely not more. Don't forget that the Paladin is still above average at defensive, quite unlike the barbarian and poissibly buffed by spells as well.
We need to keep an eye on overall balance. Not among the classes alone, but among the bonuses they bring to the party.
If we took all combat classes (in 4E terms defenders, ranger is really a secondary combatant IMO) into account than:
- the barbarian is the ultimate damage dealing machine focused on offensive for a limited amount of time. His defensive is lacking, but he has speed, endurrance and skills to compensate. For the group he offers a prospect of bringing the foe down quickly and thus conserving resources this way.
- the fighter is good overall combatant, with good offensive and defensive. His feats allow him to hinder the enemy in certain ways (trip, disarm,...) or give him a few tricks (affect multiple foes and so on). A fighter can help the group by limiting the opponent's ability to threaten the rest of the party and allowing the rest to do their part.
- the paladin has better deffensive, but his offensive efficiency is somewhat limited by the enemy he's facing. He has spells and group buffing abilities (auras) to compensate and healing to make him (and allies) last longer. He boosts group's offensive capacity a little, heals and negates certain enemy abilities.As I'm thinking about it threre may be another type of smiting (or divine bond - ranger inspiration here). Since paladin is a group buffer (if we are not to think about it in gaming terms than he's an inspiring example for the others), he might give attack and damage bonuses...
I agree with you, he should not be an amazing damage dealer...just someone who does a good amount against Evil....that is all I ask for.
As for your 2 options, you are right he should not have both. I like the unlimited option much better...i dont like that all he can do now is "burst" damage. It does not feel right to me. He is ALWAYS trying to eliminate evil...ALWAYS fighting to stop them...he would ALWAYS be smiting. Even if it is less to hit and less damage, that makes MUCH more sense to me.
Smite Evil: Every attack a paladin makes is with the focused holy energy of his faith. He is attempting to rid the world of evil with every strike. Thus with every attack a paladin makes against an evil opponent he adds his charisma bonus to his attack roll and half his paladin level to his damage roll.
I like this. But as mentioned earlier, Detect Evil needs to be involved.
How about this:
Smite Evil: A Paladin may add his Charisma Bonus to attack rolls and +1/2 his Paladin level to damage rolls against evil opponents. To activate this ability, the Paladin must be aware that his opponent is evil. To do so, he must use a Standard Action to Detect Evil on his opponent. If the Paladin is unable to ascertain his opponent's alignment, or if his opponent is not evil, the Smite Evil ability can not be used against the opponent.
Thoughts?
That totally works for me...makes complete sense and matches the fluff!
This is all based on opinion, and as always, my opinion has a good chance of differing from others'.
Paladins to me are about fighting EVIL, not evil; they are the holly warriors on a crusade to battle the really really bad guys. Yes paladins would confront the local group of bandits when traveling through a town or village, or strike down the nasty oger waylaying travelers on the old souther road, but this is not what they DO. What they DO is ferret out information on the secret cult that's sprung up, assemble a band of adventurers to help them storm the lair, and while the fighter, rogue, and wizard are taking care of the humanoid cultists the paladin bravely charges into combat with the hulking hellspawn the cult summoned to unleash on the town. See the difference?
I don't think smite evil should be dependent on alignment, it should be dependent on creature type. Off the top of my head I would say unead and outsider, maybe aberation, yeah aberation too. Going along this path I would say the paladin uses some class based resource (chanel energy or something would be good, unfortunately I'm not very familiar with the PF paladin just yet) and either get the bonuses for a specific number of rounds, or possibly the whole encounter. My preference would be per encounter, as one less thing to keep track of durring a pitched exciting end battle is always good (did I turn my smite on last round or the round before?). That and it would be a little anticlimatic to tear into some massive greater evil for a few minutes, shouting holly scripture, hacking away at it with a glowing sword full of righteous energy to have it suddenly peter out half way through the fight. Though I guess it could be a matter of the paladin's faith wasn't enough to sustain him through the confrontation. Might lead into an interesting bit of character growth where s/he has to strugle for a while with the let down and self doubt (assuming they survived) to eventually developed a renewed dedication to their cause and all that when they level...
I agree with you about going after the REALLY REALLY evil, but I think they should not be limited to just the MOST evil. A paladin can not see someone in need of help and say..."na there not evil enough, call a fighter" Evil is evil is evil...they fight it no matter how big or small.
By creature type is something I have thought about but it should not be for smite, it should be something like the Ranger's favored enemy. But not something they get to choose...just first you get favored against undead, then evil outsiders...so on and so forth. That would be awesome and very much in line with what a paladin is!
If paladin uses his smite attempt on a person who is not evil, or didn't use Detect Evil on his opponent and tries to use smite evil on him, paladin violates his code of honor and can't use smite ability for 24 hours. (Because he used his own judgment not judgment he was granted by powers of Good).
I like this too...fits the fluff as well! There should be a penalty if you smite something that does not deserve smiting!
If paladin uses his smite attempt on a person who is not evil, or didn't use Detect Evil on his opponent and tries to use smite evil on him, paladin violates his code of honor and can't use smite ability for 24 hours. (Because he used his own judgment not judgment he was granted by powers of Good).I REALLY like this idea. If we make it an at will/always on ability, the combination of a Standard Action Detect Evil and a 24 hour penalty for attempting to use it on a non-evil adversary helps balance it out.
Now we have:
Smite Evil: A Paladin may add his Charisma Bonus to attack rolls and +1/2 his Paladin level to damage rolls against evil opponents. To activate this ability, the Paladin must be aware that his opponent is evil. To do so, he must use a Standard Action to Detect Evil on his opponent. If the Paladin is unable to ascertain his opponent's alignment, or if his opponent is not evil, the Smite Evil ability can not be used against the opponent. If paladin attempts to use Smite Evil on an opponent without first using Detect Evil, the Paladin violates his code of honor and can't use Smite Evil for 24 hours.
I THINK WE HAVE IT!! Now I just wish the devs would put it to working order! My DM will not let me play test it or I would start seeing how it goes right now....if one of you could do that and report about it that would be awesome!!
Now we have:
Smite Evil: A Paladin may add his Charisma Bonus to attack rolls and +1/2 his Paladin level to damage rolls against evil opponents. To activate this ability, the Paladin must be aware that his opponent is evil. To do so, he must use a Standard Action to Detect Evil on his opponent. If the Paladin is unable to ascertain his opponent's alignment, or if his opponent is not evil, the Smite Evil ability can not be used against the opponent. If paladin attempts to use Smite Evil on an opponent without first using Detect Evil, the Paladin violates his code of honor and can't use Smite Evil for 24 hours.
Just one change, maybe you thought the same, but to show how I see it..
If paladin attempts to use Smite Evil on an opponent without first using Detect Evil, on an opponent whose alignment Paladin was unable to ascertain, or if his opponent is not evil, Smite Evil ability has no effect, but is still used. With these acts Paladin violates his code of honor and can't use Smite Evil for 24 hours.
Maybe you should fix it here and there, because I'm not a man of many words, at least not quality ones :)
I THINK WE HAVE IT!! Now I just wish the devs would put it to working order! My DM will not let me play test it or I would start seeing how it goes right now....if one of you could do that and report about it that would be awesome!!
Will try it with my group, this saturday we have a game session so will try it. Btw why wouldn't your DM let you play test it?...
It's not so much a matter of paladins would look at an old woman being robbed and say "let the fighter handle it", as typically speaking the party is made up of good guys, who generally fight bad guys, and the bad guys more often then not have evil alignments. So...allowing a paladin's smite evil to be on all the time is granting those bonuses to hit and damage on a huge percentage of the creatures the party encounters. Should the paladin really be able to Smite Evil on the weasley town mayor who uses tax money to buy whiskey and women?
What I'm thinking is letting it work on undead, evil outsiders, clerics of evil dieties, aberations....and then allow something for the DM to say "ok, the high level fighter who is building his empire on ethnically cleansing the elf population, raising an army by capturing dwarven women and having them rapped by orcs to create super soldiers, and spends his evenings playing a game similar to bowling but uses babies for pins and severed heads filled with alchemist fire for the ball...yeah, you get your smite on him too."
Looking over the paladin in the Beta I don't think they're really all that underpowered though. A few of their abilities like disease immunity aren't exactly the thing to make players jump up and down with excitement (especialy new players that have never seen the beauty of an adventure inspired by Richard Pett), and lower levels are kinda ehh, but all in all I think it might be rather easy to unbalance them in the opposite direction.
If my buddy wasn't gearing up to run an all evil campaign I would try and talk him into play testing what you've come up with...Though, if I end up DMing Rise of the Runelords I'll see if I can't talk someone into trying out a paladin...
Will try it with my group, this saturday we have a game session so will try it. Btw why wouldn't your DM let you play test it?...
My DM is a by the book nazi :( He does not think there is a problem and gives no creative leniency to players. He is a really good DM, he just does not want to let us manipulate anything....good story and reasoning or not, makes sense or not...*sigh*
It's not so much a matter of paladins would look at an old woman being robbed and say "let the fighter handle it", as typically speaking the party is made up of good guys, who generally fight bad guys, and the bad guys more often then not have evil alignments. So...allowing a paladin's smite evil to be on all the time is granting those bonuses to hit and damage on a huge percentage of the creatures the party encounters. Should the paladin really be able to Smite Evil on the weasley town mayor who uses tax money to buy whiskey and women?
What I'm thinking is letting it work on undead, evil outsiders, clerics of evil dieties, aberations....and then allow something for the DM to say "ok, the high level fighter who is building his empire on ethnically cleansing the elf population, raising an army by capturing dwarven women and having them rapped by orcs to create super soldiers, and spends his evenings playing a game similar to bowling but uses babies for pins and severed heads filled with alchemist fire for the ball...yeah, you get your smite on him too."
Looking over the paladin in the Beta I don't think they're really all that underpowered though. A few of their abilities like disease immunity aren't exactly the thing to make players jump up and down with excitement (especialy new players that have never seen the beauty of an adventure inspired by Richard Pett), and lower levels are kinda ehh, but all in all I think it might be rather easy to unbalance them in the opposite direction.
If my buddy wasn't gearing up to run an all evil campaign I would try and talk him into play testing what you've come up with...Though, if I end up DMing Rise of the Runelords I'll see if I can't talk someone into trying out a paladin...
I still dont think that it should be limited to just the worst of the worst but to each his own. That said, even this limitation would STILL make it better than it is now (if it was always active).
|
|
A paladin gives up a LOT of things with his code and LG alignment ..
In my nearly 25 years of gaming I have only played a Paladin once but have dm'ed [that's gm'ed for the kiddies] holy order's and thier faithful many a time. I for one don't think that the Paladin class gives up a lot, nor do I see being LG as a constraint [If anything if open's up mulitiple roleplaying opportunities, but that's another thread].
And as for 'sacrifice', we'll lets just say roleplaying wise that if the Paladin does not know what sacrifice is, then what class in any version of the game we hold dear would ?
I guess I've never seen the smite evil class ability as the defining ability. I've more seen it our ability to survive a lot of things that other characters can't and stand as beacons of hope and justice. Just being that beacon tends to help us be a threat at times. I'm sure many of the most evil creatures that exist would ignore those pesky daggers stabbing at it's side to sink it's claws into such the bright symbol of justice and good that is the paladin.
I support this view and would like to subscribe to your newsletter : )
Hmm, it may be interesting to have two paladin builds. One self boosting smiter who can do good damage and a group supporter who helps with his auras.
I'd agree that a paladin should be penalized for using his abilities against wrong targets and that the paladin code of conduct coud finally receive some section in rules. So far the rules were pretty vague in this area.
|
I've always seen Smite as the iconic Paladin ability. So I've done some work on the ability for home campaigns.
I've split the smite ability into two distinct layers, one always on the other x/day to maintain backwards compatibility.
The first layer is +Cha modifier to all attack rolls against evil creatures. This would keep our Paladin a ahead of the curve in his particular field of expertise.
The second layer is x/day as Smite stands now, but instead of +Paladin level to damage, it would act as an automatic critical against evil foes.
This allows the Paladin time in the spotlight when fighting his iconic foes, instead of being outclassed by other fighters.
I think you have to consider the turning smite feat as being something that any paladin is going to pick up, and probably really almost replaces smite evil, smite evil being an added bonus you can do once in a while..
A paladin gives up a LOT of things with his code and LG alignment ..In my nearly 25 years of gaming I have only played a Paladin once but have dm'ed [that's gm'ed for the kiddies] holy order's and thier faithful many a time. I for one don't think that the Paladin class gives up a lot, nor do I see being LG as a constraint [If anything if open's up mulitiple roleplaying opportunities, but that's another thread].
OK, I admit "gives up a lot" is probably the wrong wording. But the code should force a dramatic level of RPing to the player. Something that is not put on any other class. It is a restriction, and something that makes the paladin different. Depending on your campaign and your DM (I use it too) you will be put in MANY situations where your code and LG alignment will put a strain on your adventure and group. There should be a balance is all im saying here.
I think you have to consider the turning smite feat as being something that any paladin is going to pick up, and probably really almost replaces smite evil, smite evil being an added bonus you can do once in a while..
Im sorry I dont think that this in ANY way replaces Smite. If I am reading it right it is ONLY going to help you against undead. If I am reading it right it lets you focus a channel into the creature you are hitting correct? I do not see how this even comes close to replacing smite. I agree that if you have a build that is going to focus on Channeling this might be a viable feat. Though you should probably play a high charisma cleric and pick up all the other channeling abilities as well.
But for a paladin? and thinking along the lines of how smite should work? No, this does not even come close....VERY different.