What’s with the recent scaling of skill challenges by number of players rather than CP?

[Talon Stormwarden]

Chases are particularly bad lately, but other challenges as well. Isn’t this exactly why we have a challenge point system? Two parties in the same subtier with the same number of players may have drastically different power levels. Having them face the same difficulty of challenge is a completely avoidable situation.

[Gary Bush]

Power levels? How are you defining this?

If the two groups are in the same subtier than should have skills bonuses in the correct range. The party mix is what it is. If a party is melee light than they may have problems with the strength and dex based skills. Just like a melee heavy party will have problems with intelligence and wisdom based skills.

Not every adventure should be the same. It is ok to struggle. It what makes the game fun.

[Talon Stormwarden]

I'm talking about, for example, a party of 6 in a 1-4 with levels 2,2,2,2,2,3. That's 19 challenge points and high tier. Compare to a part of 6 level 4s. 36 challenge points and of course high tier. These 2 parties face the exact same challenge on any scaling based on number of players.

Those are the 2 extreme ends of the spectrum of course, but that's the point, it's a spectrum, and a fairly wide one at that. That's exactly what the challenge point system is meant for. Just seems like we're seeing more skill encounters scaling by number of players rather than challenge points. I'd prefer to see more scaling by challenge points.

However, as I'm typing this, my thoughts go to how bad the editing has been lately, I don't think I want any more burden on them. So yeah, guess it's fine compared to what could happen with more on their shoulders.

[Ferious Thune]

It may be that in the situation you present the DC should be adjusted. There have been issues in the past with scaling these type of encounters where parties of 4 players ended up needing more successes than were practically achievable (or at least very difficult to achieve) just based on pure numbers. A group of 2,2,3,4 would be high tier, and in the past would have required extra successes, meaning that they would need critical successes. But if the level 3 or 4 characters don’t have the necessary skills, it becomes nearly impossible. Some combination of number of characters and challenge points would probably be better, but strictly challenge points had issues of its own.

[Talon Stormwarden]

Oh, totally, I'd think a combination of increases in DCs and number of successes, at different challenge point totals. But maybe they thought that was too complex for GMs and/or editing/developing staff.

Ah well. Just my personal rant I guess. I just cringe every time I see a scaling based purely on number of players.

[Gary Bush]

I have seen challenge point adjustments in the appendix in some adventures.

And keep in mind the characters in the lowest level being pulled into higher by a higher level sixth character would get the level bump.

[Quentin Coldwater]

I'm more baffled by the fact that increased CP count means higher DCs, regardless of player count. Six level 1 characters would be way more problems getting successes compared to four level 3s, despite them having the same CP count. (Yeah, the odds of people having the right skills are better in the six-player party, but a good skill challenge offers multiple skills)

In the case of the level 3 party, the DCs can go up. But six level 1 PCs should not face the same DCs. Increased number of successes, yes, but more people does not automatically assume they can hit higher numbers. The odds of one of them rolling well goes up, yeah, but one extra player present should not increase everyone's DCs by 2. The extra player could assist someone for a +1, but the other people wouldn't get that help. In this case, the extra player makes things more difficult for the party, rather than being an asset.

In these cases, I'd go for regular level-appropriate DCs, and increase the number of successes per X players or something. So yeah, a combination of CP scaling and player scaling would be ideal, IMHO. More tricky to implement, but better for the players, I think.

[Project: J-ko]

I sure hope I never see a combat encounter where a group of PCs at 19 challenge points face the same threat as a group at 32. Yikes!

For chases and skill contests, I've never seen an extra success required for larger tables being an problem, but I agree with Talon's example of 2,2,2,2,2,3 being rough and an extreme case. I can definitely see some Hero Points being distributed maybe every 45 minutes instead of every hour if the party is having that tough of a go with it.

[Talon Stormwarden]

Extra hero points isn't a bad idea if you anticipate this being a factor, I'll keep that in mind. Of course that doesn't help much when players spend their Heropoints in the first combat on -10 map attacks. ;)

[Pirate Rob]

A different system, but here's some breakdown of Math for influence encounters I did previously if you want to see some of the details and complexities in scaling skill encounters.