Why does Fascinating Performance give Perform the incapacitation trait in combat? That trait is for effects that can take a character out of a fight entirely. But fascinated is barely an inconvenience.
It just needs to be extra-nerfed because of how powerful it used to be in 1st edition.
What did it do in first edition?
Fascinated: A fascinated creature is entranced by a supernatural or spell effect. The creature stands or sits quietly, taking no actions other than to pay attention to the fascinating effect, for as long as the effect lasts. It takes a –4 penalty on skill checks made as reactions, such as Perception checks. Any potential threat, such as a hostile creature approaching, allows the fascinated creature a new saving throw against the fascinating effect. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the fascinated creature, automatically breaks the effect. A fascinated creature’s ally may shake it free of the spell as a standard action
From the look of it, it removed combatants from the combat entirely.
Differences: Affected enemy can't take any actions. The effect is not broken if your party only attacks the allies of the affected enemy. The effect only breaks automatically if the affected enemy is directly targeted.
Granted, they get a new save if you or an ally of yours moves closer to them, but if you have built your PF1 character correctly, they likely fail unless they roll over a 17 - so that isn't much of a problem.
Ok, but why does it have the incapacitation trait in 2e? As soon as anyone uses a hostile action on the target or any of their allies, it's gone. And even if that weren't true, the effect only lasts for one round. And it's just a bunch of skill and Perception penalties and a slight targeting restriction.
I'm still a bit confused by the purpose here. I don't think that Fascinated is a viable condition to use in combat anyway - with or without the Incapacitation trait.
So assuming that having the Incapacitation trait is an error that gets immediately removed... what now?
Now you still need a critical success to fascinate the enemy. The difference is it's now possible against bosses. Woo hoo.
Now you still need a critical success to fascinate the enemy. The difference is it's now possible against bosses. Woo hoo.
*squints skeptically*
For certain meanings of 'possible', I suppose.
Now you still need a critical success to fascinate the enemy. The difference is it's now possible against bosses. Woo hoo.*squints skeptically*
For certain meanings of 'possible', I suppose.
This feat only works on a critical success even against regular mooks. Against bosses, your critical success is downgraded by incapacitation to a success, which isn't enough.
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It would help to put things in perspective a bit. Fascinating Performance is a level 1 skill feat that you can gain through your background. The cost of entry is remarkably low. It's main function is out of combat tricks, not combat. It's distracting the guard while the rogue lifts the keys off of him, stopping the bar fight from breaking out while your group escapes, or buying time for your archer to get into position while you keep the goblins busy.
The ability to essentially remove someone in combat is quite strong - especially at level 1 and typically with a skill that people either forget or take all the way to legendary depending on their character. With high enough bonuses, it becomes more viable for combat, but that certainly is not its main role in the game.
This feat only works on a critical success even against regular mooks. Against bosses, your critical success is downgraded by incapacitation to a success, which isn't enough.Now you still need a critical success to fascinate the enemy. The difference is it's now possible against bosses. Woo hoo.*squints skeptically*
For certain meanings of 'possible', I suppose.
The difficulty is that for enemies of higher level than you are, you will likely need to nat-20 the roll in order to critically succeed. That becomes such a low probability outcome that the rest of your team will be unwilling to plan around it working. And if it does work, it has its effect for such a short duration that it is nearly unable to capitalize on regardless.
The ability is still ineffective even if it is technically possible. Having the incapacitation trait to make it impossible may be a benefit. It prevents people unfamiliar with the Fascinated condition from attempting it and expecting it to work.
It would help to put things in perspective a bit. Fascinating Performance is a level 1 skill feat that you can gain through your background. The cost of entry is remarkably low. It's main function is out of combat tricks, not combat. It's distracting the guard while the rogue lifts the keys off of him, stopping the bar fight from breaking out while your group escapes, or buying time for your archer to get into position while you keep the goblins busy.
All of these examples sound like things you could achieve with the Aid reaction. I guess it made more sense back when the feat was first published, before the default Aid DC was reduced to 15. And now that I think of it, nothing is stopping someone from using Aid and Fascinating Performance to make an ally's Stealth or Thievery extra easy.
The ability to essentially remove someone in combat is quite strong - especially at level 1 and typically with a skill that people either forget or take all the way to legendary depending on their character. With high enough bonuses, it becomes more viable for combat, but that certainly is not its main role in the game.
Fascinated doesn't remove someone from combat at all. It inflicts some status penalties and prevents concentrate actions from targeting anyone else. These are good de-buffs, but they aren't actually depriving the target of any actions, and they don't last a meaningful amount of time in combat. I've been looking at other fascination effects, and the only ones that seem to have the incapacitation trait are the ones with secondary effects that actually deprive you of actions.
If your boss gets petrified, they're done for. If your boss gets stunned for 1 round, they're probably done for. If your boss gets blinded for 1 minute, they're probably done for. If your boss gets fascinated for one round or less, they are NOT done for.
Again, you're very much underselling the power of fascinate when it stops a creature from engaging with anyone but the origin of the condition as well as lock out all concentrate actions (most spells).
I would disagree that Fascinating Performance's ability can be replicated by an Aid check, but that opinion I am sure will vary from GM to GM. Even if you feel that is the case, a +1 as opposed to entirely taking the attention and imposing a -2 penalty to all checks feels quite a bit different.
Finally, and to reiterate, this is a level 1 skill feat that is a one-action ability with no limit. I'm not sure what you want it to do, but you should keep in mind that these sorts of things should have limits for the accessibility. As it stands, were it not for the combat caveat, it would very easily outrank most cantrips.
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Again, you're very much underselling the power of fascinate when it stops a creature from engaging with anyone but the origin of the condition as well as lock out all concentrate actions (most spells).
To be fair, I think you are overselling it.
It doesn't prevent the target from engaging with anyone.
Against the person/effect who caused the condition, the target can do anything that they want to.
And against anyone else, they can do the same things that a Raging Barbarian can do to them. Which is quite a bit more than nothing.
I recognize that fascinate is not an amazing condition to impose, but it is a very powerful tactical play. You can shutdown many actions, most spells included. If it's going to be one action and MAP-less, it should have other limitations. Given that the intent is not to be used in combat, it seems like both of you are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
I recognize that fascinate is not an amazing condition to impose, but it is a very powerful tactical play. You can shutdown many actions, most spells included. If it's going to be one action and MAP-less, it should have other limitations. Given that the intent is not to be used in combat, it seems like both of you are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
There is an enormous difference between shutting down actions and painting a target sign on your back that may or may not be ignored. And even without incapacitation, it has these limitations:
1. Nothing short of a critical success will work in combat.2. The target becomes immune for 1 hour, even if the Performance check failed.
3. If you try to harm the target or their allies, the effect ends.
4. If the target's ally slaps the target, the effect ends.
5. If the target slaps their ally, the effect ends.
6. If one round somehow passes without the effect ending, the effect ends.
You've convinced me that the feat still works fine out of combat, but the need for the incapacitation trait in combat still seems like a stretch given these limitations. The purpose of the incapacitation trait is to protect high level enemies from being completely trivialized, and forcing the BBEG to Demoralize the bard instead of the fighter just doesn't seem to fit the bill.
It doesn't seem like you want the discussion so much as being seen as correct. You can do whatever you'd like. If you feel this strongly, remove the combat caveat. It's likely that it won't affect your games at all.
I'm really just frustrated that fascinated is so fragile. There are combat abilities that inflict fascinated and a powerful secondary effect that may or may not depend in fascinated, and if it were just those cases, I could understand fascinated being so easy to remove. But there are also abilities like Fascinated Performance that treat fascinated alone like some sort of holy hand grenade that needs to be nerfed or else it will break your game. And there are abilities that use fascinated but have peculiar assumptions about how the condition is normally removed (Frost Worm's Worm Trill comes to mind). There are even Adventure Paths that give the GM instructions that only make sense if the fascinated condition works completely differently from what the condition says. So when something says it inflicts fascinated, I have no idea what the developers meant for it to do.
Given that the intent is not to be used in combat, it seems like both of you are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.
The Fascinated condition is not intended to be used in combat. Outside of combat there are uses for it, yes.
The square peg is Fascinating Performance. Pretty much the entire write-up of that feat is centered around applying the Fascinated condition during combat. Everything from the duration of the effect, to the notes about how to use it during combat.
What I am pointing out to SuperParkourio is that the existence of the Incapacitation trait isn't what makes this feat suck when you use it in combat.
What I am pointing out to you is that the fact that it is good to use outside of combat doesn't mean that it doesn't suck if you try to use it in combat.
I understand that incapacitation is not the reason the feat isn't viable in combat. I'm just baffled that the feat has incapacitation at all for an effect that has so little consequence in combat.