Hi everyone.
I got an interesting idea, and I want to hear your opinion)
In the balephul polymorph spell it says -
Any polymorph effects on the target are automatically dispelled when a target fails to resist the effects of baleful polymorph, and as long as baleful polymorph remains in effect, the target cannot use other polymorph spells or effects to assume a new form.
So, if a character is under baleful polymorph I can cast another baleful polymorph and after the character fails his save THE FIRST POLYMORPH SHOULD BE AUTOMATICALLY DISPELLED. Then I can just dispell MY polymorh which can be done AUTOMATICALLY as well, instead of dispelling the original polymorph, which could require 30/40/50+ caster level check.
Your thoughts?)
Baleful Polymorph cause "Any polymorph effects on the target are automatically dispelled"
and Baleful Polymorph itself is a polymorph effect.
However, there is another sentence which said "as long as baleful polymorph remains in effect, the target cannot use other polymorph spells or effects to assume a new form."
So technically the second Baleful Polymorph will not work.
You could however use your own Baleful Polymorph as a counter spell.
a Fort save and the last paragraph is why baleful polymorph:T5 is a good spell vs other casters and weak fort save types.
I agree a baleful polymorph cannot overcome the first failed baleful polymorph effect. However there are other methods depending on what rolls have been failed such as dispel magic:A3(as it is dur:permanent), gaseous form:T3, true form:A4, break ench:A5, magic jar & personal spells, etc.
happykj wrote: Baleful Polymorph cause "Any polymorph effects on the target are automatically dispelled"
and Baleful Polymorph itself is a polymorph effect.
However, there is another sentence which said "as long as baleful polymorph remains in effect, the target cannot use other polymorph spells or effects to assume a new form."
So technically the second Baleful Polymorph will not work.
My thought is that a polymorph effect wouldbe applied AFTER a creature failed its save. And at the same time - once the creature failed its save - the first polymorph is dispelled. So it won't be second polymorph effect. Don't you think so?)
Mysterious Stranger wrote: You could however use your own Baleful Polymorph as a counter spell. This doesn't work against polymorph any object, or against Qlippoth Lord gaze ability. So we need to fix things after an ally get polymorphed.
A strict reading says that the target cannot use other polymorph spells or effect to assume a new form. Presumably to keep a target that made it's Will save from easily returning to normal.
In this case it's not the target using the second Baleful Polymorph, it's a different, if friendly, caster.
Edit: Spelling
Jesalin wrote: A strict reading says that the target cannot use other polymorph spells or effect to assume a new form. Presumably to keep a target that made it's Will save from easily returning to normal.
In this case it's not the target using the second Baleful Polymorph, it's a different, if friendly, caster.
If you are going with a strict reading, the wording that would allow polymorph effects being overridden says:
Transmutation > Polymorph wrote: You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. ... So by the strict reading, whether you're the one putting the polymorph effect on yourself or not, 'you' get to decide, and as such, 'you' (being the target of baleful polymorph in this example) would be the one using it to override, suppress, or otherwise end the polymorph effect in place on you, which is not allowed by the wording of baleful polymorph.
A) Not resisting a spell doesn't suddenly make you the caster of said spell.
B) Baleful Polymorph isn't a harmless spell, therefore it's always resisted. the specificity of the spell overrides the more general polymorph rules.
Jesalin wrote:
B) Baleful Polymorph isn't a harmless spell, therefore it's always resisted. the specificity of the spell overrides the more general polymorph rules.
Noting stops you from wilfully falling a spell save, even if it will harm you.
Some archetypes force you into always attempting to save, but those are specific exceptions to the general rule.
CRB wrote: Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw: A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.
Ah, my mistake there then. I think my first point still stands though.
Jesalin wrote: Ah, my mistake there then. I think my first point still stands though. Jesalin wrote:
A) Not resisting a spell doesn't suddenly make you the caster of said spell.
I have no problem with that. "The target (of Baleful polymorph) cannot use other polymorph spells or effects to assume a new form" limits only what the target can do, but it doesn't stop other people from casting polymorph spells on them.
Diego Rossi wrote: I have no problem with that. "The target (of Baleful polymorph) cannot use other polymorph spells or effects to assume a new form" limits only what the target can do, but it doesn't stop other people from casting polymorph spells on them. In the case of baleful polymorph being used, I don't have a problem with that. Baleful polymorph specifically dispels other polymorphs effects, which means that using its specific rules, it would dispel the original baleful polymorph (and replace it with another creature as per the spell). The effects of that specific spell offer no choices to the target.
The issue is where you say it doesn't stop other people from casting polymorph spells.
This is also technically true. They can cast polymorph spells on you all day, but you can't end the baleful polymorph effect if the choice is you ending the effect, when that effect says you can't end it via that method. Like you judged, it limits what the target can do. And since the target is the one that decides what a polymorph spell does or doesn't do when targeted while they have another in effect (ie. let it work or not), then they can't use that to end baleful polymorph.
The rules are not written to be Legalese or scrutinized as such. They are written to be easily read and understood in a general context. It is well-stated that they are not meant to be viewed as Asmodeon, Infernal contracts. It is clearly the intention that baleful polymorph is not intended to be dismissible or otherwise negated by someone just using a simple 1st-level spell like face of the devourer, wizened appearance, or youthful appearance.
The reply to Jesalin was in regards to trying to view all the rules in such a strict manner and interpreting them in only one possible way and outlook and that, by doing so, it still wouldn't work because the strict reading of the 'rule' that would let you do it, specifically says you'd be the one making the decision that did it (not some other caster) in regards to polymorph effects (that let you, the target, decide whether to let them work or not and end baleful polymorph).
If you were going to try and strictly read the rules [in a way they aren't intended to be parsed], then you have to do the same for all the applicable rules for the situation. One of which is very specifically worded:
Transmutation > Polymorph wrote: If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. Strictly reading it, as you suggest, makes it very clear that it is you that is taking an action (not in a standard or move-action definition) and making a choice and doing something that would end the baleful polymorph effect in a manner that cannot remove it.
This isn't like some effect that says, 'You can't take actions that would make you leave your current space.' and someone else moves you with bull rush, or carrying you, or putting you on a mount, or levitating you and moving you up and down themselves. This is like you claiming, "Well, someone cast command on me and told me to move, so I can do it, because I am not the caster of the effect that's making me take an action to move." Or they cast confusion and your result was attack the nearest creature or run away, you couldn't do it if it involved you leaving your space (and would default to babbling aimlessly).
I agree with the reading that the spell also prevents others from casting polymorph spells on the target. I believe that the word "use" in the sentence "The target (of Baleful polymorph) cannot use other polymorph spells or effects to assume a new form" was purposefully chosen as a catch all for any way that a polymorph spell/effect could be applied to the target.
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
When you are targeted with a second polymorph spell you are the one who decides which spell affects you. So, even if you are not casting the spell, it is your decision that it affects you. That means you are in fact actually using a polymorph effect.
even IF a Home GM allowed a second baleful polymorph to work, the target is still stuck in a size less than or equal to 1HD small animal and risks the Will save again and likely without the magical bonuses from worn items the first time around. While a dog may be better form than a chicken, it is just too risky to take another shot to lose one's mind. So effectively it has gotten the target nowhere and risks loss of sentience.
scroll up and use the spells I mentioned. It's not that hard to undo given time and/or a couple of scrolls. grtr dispel magic would be a flexible utilitarian choice.
Mysterious Stranger wrote: You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
When you are targeted with a second polymorph spell you are the one who decides which spell affects you. So, even if you are not casting the spell, it is your decision that it affects you. That means you are in fact actually using a polymorph effect.
With Baleful polymorph, you don't decide anything. That is why it should work.
If I get it correctly the OP needs a fast solution in combat or just after it has ended (maybe the PC was polymorphed into a fish while in the Abyss, as he cites the Qlippoth Lord, Yamasoth, gaze attack), so the risk of failing the secondary save is less important than removing the polymorph effect.
Recent threads in Rules Questions
|
