Kineticist can be a complex class, hahaha.
Living Bonfire allows the Kineticist to "summon" a proxy bonfire that from which it can use their Elemental Blast from. Whenever they do, their wood (vitality/bludgeoning) Elemental Blast deal an additional d6 fire damage. Okay!
Now, if I were to use Two-Element Infusion with an Elemental Blast coming from a Living Bonfire, I'd be using the highest damage die between fire and wood. Fire does d6, wood does d8, so it's wood's.
First question: What exactly are we rolling? Either a d8 bludgeoning damage die that deals half of its damage as fire, or an untyped d8 damage die that deals half bludgeoning and half fire damage. Correct? Since neither of these two possibilities aren't a fire damage die, it can't trigger the fire impulse juction, I think. Okay. Even if that isn't the case, infusion is defined as such:
And it says as such when you gain your junctions:
"In addition, you gain an impulse junction, a benefit that occurs when you use an impulse of the chosen element that takes 2 actions or more. This happens before the other effects of the impulse, unless noted otherwise. You can gain only one impulse junction per round; they are described in full below."
Fire junction doesn't detail when its effects happens, so the junction happens before any of the impulse's effects. As such, really, fire junction can't work in any infusion. Right?
But what about the additional d6 from Living Bonfire? Would its die be increased by the fire junction impulse? Is its additional die considered "other effects of the impulse"? Is the intention of the fire junction to only work with the base fire Elemental Blast, then?
Thoughts?
If your conclusion to the logic is "Fire Kineticists can't use their junctions if they use Infusion" then there is probably something wrong with the logic.
Living Bonfire is extra damage added to ranged Elemental Blast with Wood element. It doesn't change any existing damage die sizes.
Fire Impulse junction could be argued to affect the Living Bonfire Impulse directly when you cast the Bonfire Impulse, increasing its extra damage die size for the duration of that Bonfire.
Two-Element Infusion for Elemental Blast (fire, wood) coming from the bonfire would do d8s of damage (because that is the larger die size of the two). Once rolled, half the damage would be wood element type, the other half would be fire element type.
Doing a 2-action Two-Element Infusion Elemental Blast (fire, wood) could still trigger the fire Impulse Junction. It would increase the die size of the fire damage to d8. So then it ties the d8 of the wood damage, so there isn't much benefit since the Elemental Blast is already doing d8s for damage. But the junction triggers just fine.
The timing of using the Infusion before using the Impulse shouldn't prevent junctions from working. The Infusion affects the Impulse as it is cast. The junctions also trigger and have their effect as the Impulse is cast. Characters don't generally need nerf'ed in PF2. The rules - especially for abilities coming from the same class - are written to let things work.
stuff
Ahahaha to be clear, I'm not saying that the usage of a fire junction disallows for the usage of an infusion, it's just that the infusion effects are applied after the fire junction's. Some people think that Two-Element Infusion transforms the die of the Elemental Blast to a fire die, and so it should upgrade the d8 to d10. That's why I included the bit about "fire junctions shouldn't work on infusions". Not with, explicitly on.
As for Living Bonfire, I don't know... I can see what you're saying, but one could also argue that the Living Bonfire impulse isn't dealing any damage by itself, it simply enhances the damage dealt by Elemental Blasts coming from there with an extra d6 of fire damage. If we were to consider your version, then what happens if a player says "okay, it's my next turn, I use an Elemental Blast and it comes from the Living Bonfire. It deals an extra d8 by itself but since this is a new impulse, I'll upgrade it again fire the fire junction to a d10".
That feels a little... Unintended, no?
IMO it also doesn't seem to consider if the effects that Living Bonfire have on further Elemental Blasts coming from there are considered "impulse effects", because if yes, then they shouldn't be upgraded by the fire junction.
I was thinking about the unintended consequence of the living bonfire getting to apply two uses of the fire junction until I realized that living bonfire only works on a basic wood blast impulse, and so could never benefit from the fire junction, leaving the living bonfire as the only thing that can be affected by the junction.
Still a little hazy whether the bonfires bonus effect should benefit from the fire junction tho'
So in the case of Fire junction, there isn't an effect that happens before, but something that happens during, since that's what the specific junction says it does ("increase damage die DEALT").
Hi! Junctions will let us know when they take effect in a very explicit way. For example:
Air: "Before or after the other effects of the impulse, you can either Stride up to half your Speed or Step. If you have a fly Speed, you can Fly up to half your fly Speed instead."
Water:After the impulse's other effects, you can move one creature targeted by the impulse or in its area 5 feet in any direction, or 10 feet if it's in a body of water. This can't move the creature into the air. You can choose only a creature that's willing to be moved, that failed its save against the impulse, or that you succeeded at an impulse attack roll against."
Fire junction doesn't note when it happens in the same way, so it should default to happening before the impulses' other effects.
it divides the damage dice into separate pools: a fire pool, and a wood pool. From the book: "Half the blast’s damage is the damage type of one element, and the other half is the damage type of the other element."
So now it's 1d8+2 Wood + 1d10+2 Fire from the basic blast,
I don't interpret that sentence to say that it splits the damage dice into two pools.
So how are you interpreting that next sentence from Two-Element Infusion?
If the total damage is an odd number, you choose which element deals the higher damage.
What is this odd number that they speak of? And how do you handle an odd number of damage dice from the impulse?
But it does tell us. It tell us that it happens when the damage is dealt. That's neither before, nor after, and it's clearly defined (since damage is dealt at a specific point during the sequence)
"Increase the damage die size of fire damage dealt by the impulse by one step" is the effect of the junction. It is not specifying when it happens in the same way that it does with Air or Water. If that was the case, it would say something like "during the other effects of the impulse, increase the damage die size(...)" (which I don't think makes tons of sense rules-wise, since we have to know if the junction may affect the other effects of the impulse or not, so it should happen before or after).
Living Bonfire is the most straightforward answer. It is a fire impulse that takes 2 actions, so qualifies for the fire impulse junction. When you use Living Bonfire, you increase the damage die size of fire damage dealt by the impulse by one step. "This blast deals an additional 1d6 fire damage." So increase that die to 1d8
So the additional damage of Living Bonfire wouldn't count as an "impulse effect", then?
If you use two-element infusion on a wood elemental blast to combine it with fire and activate your fire impulse junction, "The blast gains the traits of both elements and uses the highest range and damage die among the two elements." The highest range among the two elements is 60' from fire, and the dice are tied between 1d8 bludgeoning or vitality and 1d8 fire due to fire junction raising the damage die size of fire damage by one step. Regardless of which die you choose, you roll the dice, add modifiers, AND THEN split the total equally between bludgeoning or vitality damage and fire damage with any remainder from an odd total going to the type of your choice. You do not split the DICE before rolling, you split the DAMAGE after rolling and totalling. "Half the blast's damage is the damage type of one element, and the other half is the damage type of the other element. If the total damage is an odd number, you choose which element deals the higher damage."
Hmmm, agreed!
If you emit that blast through the Living Bonfire from my first paragraph, it would do an additional 1d8 fire damage, which is not increased again by your fire impulse junction because you're not "using" the Living Bonfire impulse again, you're just benefiting from its existing effect
So, this is why I don't think the fire junction can interact by itself with Living Bonfire: Say that in my first round, I use Living Bonfire, and so the fire damage die from any elemental blast that comes from it goes from d6 to d8 for the duration of Living Bonfire, okay. Next round! I'm using Elemental Blast, and it is coming from the Living Bonfire. Why couldn't activate the fire junction again, to upgrade it to a d10? I don't think there's any rule that prohibts the benefits of an existing effect, though I could be wrong.
IMO, Living Bonfire doesn't deal any damage. It enhances elemental blasts that come from it with an additional d6 fire damage. If the effects of Living Bonfire aren't considered as an "impulse effect", then absolutely, whenever the Kineticist uses an Elemental Blast that comes off the Living Bonfire, then the fire die is upgraded.
Is it practically kinda the same thing, though. :B
I'm inclined to think that, technically no elemental blast cast from the bonfire can trigger the fire junction since that attack is just a ranged wood blast that happens to be on fire, and happens to originate from a different location than usual. While the bonfire itself definitely is a fire impulse, it doesn't seem like anything says that the wood blast launched from the bonfire gains the trait--albeit it probably should considering it will deal fire damage on arrival.
Of course, I have a feeling the discussion of what is or isn't technically correct may be about to get quite contentious and I'm not about to defend this reading considering that I would probably allow the bonfire bonus to go up to d8 for the fire junction, albeit at the stated maximum of one impulse junction per round.
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@Sasha If your point is that Living Bonfire doesn't do any damage on its own, and that's why it doesn't qualify for the fire impulse junction, then I accept that interpretation. That just means you need to fire infuse to use the fire impulse junction each time you use a wood blast with Living Bonfire to upgrade the additional damage die from d6 to d8
Hahaha, yep! That's pretty much how I, personally of course, interpret it.
I'm inclined to think that, technically no elemental blast cast from the bonfire can trigger the fire junction since that attack is just a ranged wood blast that happens to be on fire, and happens to originate from a different location than usual. While the bonfire itself definitely is a fire impulse, it doesn't seem like anything says that the wood blast launched from the bonfire gains the trait--albeit it probably should considering it will deal fire damage on arrival.
Of course, I have a feeling the discussion of what is or isn't technically correct may be about to get quite contentious and I'm not about to defend this reading considering that I would probably allow the bonfire bonus to go up to d8 for the fire junction, albeit at the stated maximum of one impulse junction per round.
Hi!
Some of your thoughts makes me believe that you're of the opinion that a junction can only affect an impulse of their own element. Am I understanding you wrong?
As far as I can see (and I may be missing something, feel free to point it out to me!), fire junction may affect any fire damage die of any impulse. My only question is if we have any way to define "other impulse effects" to conclude if the additional damage die from Living Bonfire should be able to be upgraded by the fire junction, or if the fire junction is attempted to be applied before the fire die is added.
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Oh wow, you guys are right! I completely skipped over that, huh.