Thaumaturge's Mirror Implement , and Taking Control From Players


Rules Discussion


I want to talk about how I think the adept benefit of Thaumaturge's "Mirror" Implement makes the Initiate Benefit worse.

I'm getting my information from Archive of Nethys and assuming no changes have been made to Thaumaturge in the remaster, which AoN is still out of date on.

Mirror's Reflection:
You reflect an illusory image of yourself into another unoccupied space within 15 feet that you can see. You are treated as being in both spaces until the start of your next turn. For example, you can attack, Seek, and provide flanking—even with yourself. You occupy both spaces.

Your mirror self mimics your actions exactly, but any effects you generate come from only one of your positions; you decide which each time you act. For example, if you made a melee Strike against a creature within reach of the reflection, you'd mime the actions of the Strike, but only the reflection would actually make the Strike. Anything that targets or would affect your reflection affects you and uses your statistics. Something that would target or affect both of you affects you only once. For example, a fireball that included both of you in its area would require only one save from you and damage you no more than once. When you move, you choose which square to move from, but the mirror effect ends (see below).

Some events force you to determine which image is the real you, and then end the effect and cause your mirror self to disappear; this happens automatically at the start of your next turn. It also happens if you choose to move out of your space. Other benefits of this implement add more events that can end the reflection. The effect also ends when you fall unconscious, at which point you decide which version is truly you.

Adept Benefit:
Your mirror self shatters into punishing shards when damaged. While Mirror's Reflection is in effect, when an enemy adjacent to one of your spaces damages you, that version of you explodes into mirror shards. This ends Mirror's Reflection (establishing the remaining version of you as the real one) and deals slashing damage to all creatures in a 5-foot emanation around where your mirror self was. The damage is equal to 2 + half your level or the damage of the triggering attack, whichever is lower. You're immune to this damage.

Reading this RAW, The mirror's reflection does not break when struck until you reach 7th or 11th level, at which point any attack that damages you ends your mirror's reflection, by force.

IF you are using your mirror to gain movement between turns or apply extra flanking for allies, this ability is suddenly interrupted as you level up. Essentially, enemies gain the ability to interrupt Mirror's Reflection at the cost of taking a small amount of damage. This is bad, abilities should not lose utility as players level up, and leveling up should not take control of your ability and hand it over to enemies.

I am in no way suggesting that the ability to essentially teleport when attacked is bad. it's a very strong defensive ability! It should not be forced. The shattering doesn't even protect the player from the damage inflicted, there's no reason they shouldn't be able to keep the reflection active instead of shattering it. They've been doing it for up to ten levels. if you pay attention, players are hit by attacks pretty regularly. your reflection WILL be interrupted frequently and if you're using it to reposition or flank, that is now interrupted, and if you're NOT using it to reposition, now it amounts to forced movement.

Whats more, if you want access to the mirror implement before level fifteen, you will have to unlock this detriment at some point. Because of the order Thaumaturge unlocks adept benefits and new implements, you gain the adept benefit to your mirror before you gain a third implement! the best you can do is, assuming you can retrain implements, take mirror early, suffer levels 11-14 getting your reflections bonked to oblivion every round, and then train out of mirror, into another 2nd implement, and take mirror as your third when you hit level 15.

I realize this is a very easy thing to augment with a house rule, and since I play at a pretty forgiving table, that's a conversation to have with my DM. but it's a conversation that wouldn't be needed, if the player were just given a choice how to use their ability in the rules. Granting the player choice to keep or shatter their reflection when hit wouldn't make the mirror more powerful- reflections have been not exploding for 10 levels, after all -nor would it make it less powerful. it would just make it more playable.


I don't think this is a particularly hot take. I think everyone basically agrees with you.

I personally don't think it's quite as bad as it's made out to be. You can play around it if you know it's going to happen. You get hit, which means your image shatters and deals a small amount of damage to your opponent (to which there is no save btw) and then your opponent has to use a move action to attack you again. So you can use this to deal some chip damage and protect yourself from multiple attacks.

Having said that, you could still do everything I mentioned above if the Thaumaturge got a choice here, and as you say it would be more playable. I don't really know why they made it not a choice (I mean, obviously for flavour reasons, but again that doesn't really break if you give them a choice), so I'd definitely house-rule it to give the player the choice.

For what it's worth, I'm playing an Amulet/Mirror Thaumaturge with the Reflection heritage, so I've taken the Mirror as my first Adept Implement. I have yet to actually play it since leveling up so I don't know how it will go exactly, but I don't imagine it will break my character. It's definitely the worse option mechanically though.

Verdant Wheel

Shattered Mirror - should be the name and should be a free action.

Agree.

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