| Frostfire v3 |
Greetings people, just noticed a combination that would be useful for my character and i need to have it checked in case i missed something.
The idea is to take a monster's body permanently without killing or .ind controlling them, here's the idea.
The PC casts possession on a monster, the usual dragon for this example.
Then casts Bilocation while inside of the dragon, creating a clone of the dragon.
Possession then gets turned off returning yourself to your body while maintaining the bilocated dragon.
Then we turn off Bilocation, chosing the dragon's body as the one to return.
Ideally this should lead to a permanent new body for the character.
Obviously this is not intended by the design of those spells, im interested in knowing if the combination could work RAW.
I believe bilocation creates a copy of your current body.
A reincarnated character wouldn't make a copy of his original body.
If you used Mind Swap, Major on a troll while having the racial heritage feat you would create a copy of the troll, not your original body.
Even sillier would be acharacter using Skinsend that has very similar woring to Bilocation, obviously he would skin his
current body, not his original one.
The spells mentioned:
Bilocation https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/bilocation/
Possession https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/possession/
Skinsend https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/skinsend/
Thank you, if you have any other idea on how to achieve peaceful body snatching im all ears.
| happykj |
I don't think the magic effect will transfer when you end the possession, like if you cast mirror image to yourself, then the effect is on the dragon body, so when the possession ends, it remains on the dragon body, not your original body. Otherwise it will means that if someone cast debuff on the dragon, then you will take away its debuff when possession end. Thus, i think the Bilocation will be controlled by the dragon if you end the possession.
Though this is just my opinion, not sure is there any RAW for it.
| Frostfire v3 |
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't think the magic effect will transfer when you end the possession, like if you cast mirror image to yourself, then the effect is on the dragon body, so when the possession ends, it remains on the dragon body, not your original body. Otherwise it will means that if someone cast debuff on the dragon, then you will take away its debuff when possession end. Thus, i think the Bilocation will be controlled by the dragon if you end the possession.
Though this is just my opinion, not sure is there any RAW for it.
In the possession rules page it's stated:
. If the possessing creature is the only mind or soul in the host body, the compulsion or charm effect works on the possessing creature normally. If the possessing creature is later evicted from the body, the compulsion or charm effect remains active on the possessing creature when it returns to its original body. For instance, if a mesmerist is using mind swap on a bard, and a succubus uses her dominate monster spell-like ability when she meets the possessed bard, the mesmerist must attempt a saving throw against the spell. If he fails, the mesmerist becomes dominated by the succubus, and when his possession ends and he returns to his body, he remains at the mercy of his new mistress.
When both the host creature and a possessing creature occupy a body at the same time, a charm or compulsion effect can target either one. However, the caster must be aware of the possessing creature’s presence in the host body in order to target it. Otherwise, the effect targets the host by default, generally with limited effect.
Here it specifically talks about compulsion and charm effects but i think a similar reasoning should apply.
Bilocation gives you two bodies you control with a single consciousness, and i think the effect ahould follow the soul and not the body.
Conversely a polymorph effect that specifically targets the body should stay with the body.
But to be honest i was sure the rules were more clear about what kind of effects stayed with the body and whose followed the soul.
Maybe i missed something.
https://www.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Rule%20Interactions&Category=Pos session
| Pizza Lord |
1. You cast possession on a creature (troll, let's say). 1 hour per level, assuming 17th level since you can cast 9th-level spells like bilocation), so you have 17 hours in the troll body.
Your body lays where it was, looking dead (unless you use greater possession).
2. You cast bilocation, and create a duplicate of the troll within Close range. The troll will have the spells affecting you (not your body) and the spells and effects affecting the troll body. It will have whatever gear or items are on the troll (excluding artifacts). Luckily bilocation doesn't require Material components, so lack of spell component pouch is okay.
Any magical effect with a duration affecting you has its duration halved while you’re bilocating. For example, the hold person spell mentioned above would lose 2 rounds’ worth of duration per round until your duplicate disappeared.
Your possession spell's duration is now halved down to 8.5 hours (I wouldn't round down to 8). Technically you cast it on the troll's body, but now you're in the troll's body, so it's on you. And also technically (though I could understand a GM ruling otherwise), your bilocation spell should be halved from 17 rounds down to 8 (I don't agree with it, just technically).
3. You are in control of both troll bodies and technically, the troll's soul is also in both bodies, because it's trapped with you as per the spell.
4. If you dismiss possession you will return to your original body. The troll will be left bilocated. Its bodies, will be under its control, since its soul is in both (as part of the bilocation spell.
5. You (as the caster) can dismiss bilocation (if in Close range of either troll body) and the troll would choose which body is 'real' at that point, just as the spell ending normally would allow.
| Azothath |
you need the Advice Forum.
From a Rules perspective the spells do not work the way you intend or operate with the control you assume or your wording isn't exact enough. The proof will come In Game, it is a learning experience.
(aka I've done this and you're going about it the wrong way)
My suggestion is to play/GM a high level magic game and get some experience with the spell system and how to take advantage of the various foibles/features.
| Frostfire v3 |
4. If you dismiss possession you will return to your original body. The troll will be left bilocated. Its bodies, will be under its control, since its soul is in both (as part of the bilocation spell.
I dont really understand this part, how is the control shifted from you to the troll?
The spell bilocates YOUR consciousness, not the troll's.
In the same way a compulsion effect was on me would follow my soul, a compultion effect cast on the troll would follow his soul and any effect on the body will stay on that body.
In my mind saying that the troll magically obtains control of both bodies is like saying that if i possess someone and then polymorph into a dragon i still retain the dragon form once i go back to my original body, makes no sesen.
| Frostfire v3 |
you need the Advice Forum.
From a Rules perspective the spells do not work the way you intend or operate with the control you assume or your wording isn't exact enough. The proof will come In Game, it is a learning experience.
(aka I've done this and you're going about it the wrong way)My suggestion is to play/GM a high level magic game and get some experience with the spell system and how to take advantage of the various foibles/features.
Mind elaborating a little?
From a rules perspective the combo seems to work even if unintended.
Also it really seems to work in the way i described it, could you explain how you believe the interaction work?
Also what about my wording? It is there just to explain the interaction, its the spells thenselves that do the rest lol.
I dont know what kind of proof you might get of these combo not working if you play the game without these combos, and im not even sure what is there to learn about the game.
You say you did this kind of things before but that im doing it the wrong way, what is the right one then?
| happykj |
4. If you dismiss possession you will return to your original body. The troll will be left bilocated. Its bodies, will be under its control, since its soul is in both (as part of the bilocation spell.
I dont really understand this part, how is the control shifted from you to the troll?
The spell bilocates YOUR consciousness, not the troll's.In the same way a compulsion effect was on me would follow my soul, a compultion effect cast on the troll would follow his soul and any effect on the body will stay on that body.
In my mind saying that the troll magically obtains control of both bodies is like saying that if i possess someone and then polymorph into a dragon i still retain the dragon form once i go back to my original body, makes no sesen.
The main issue is not about how it works, it is more important to check with the GM, because they are the one who make decision, especially about something that seems unbalanced and without a clear RAW.
They can say Bilocation is an identical copy of yourself, and either make the spell automatically stop or make your copy become original form when possession ends, or they will just reject it when you want to keep new body. How it should work doesnt matter, what matter is how the GM will handle this
| Phoebus Alexandros |
Greetings people, just noticed a combination that would be useful for my character and i need to have it checked in case i missed something.
...
If I understand you correctly:
Ezren the Wizard casts Greater Possession on an Adult Red Dragon. The dragon fails his Will save. Ezren enters the dragon’s body and his own physical body vanishes.
(Normally, Ezren would be ejected to the closest empty square upon expiration of the spell, 17 hours later (or upon the dragon's death).)
Ezren then casts Bilocation, creating an identical copy of the Adult Red Dragon he is possessing, along with everything the Adult Red Dragon is wearing and carrying at the time of casting*. This halves the remaining duration of the Greater Possession spell.
When Bilocation ends, Ezren decides whether the Adult Red Dragon he is possessing or the duplicate Adult Red Dragon he created with Bilocation disappears. If the Adult Red Dragon he is possessing disappears, Ezren becomes the duplicate Adult Red Dragon. If Ezren is carrying artifacts** while possessing the Adult Red Dragon when he does this, they transfer with his consciousness when he becomes the duplicate.
So what you really want to know is whether Bilocation, a 9th level spell with a duration of 1 round/level can serve as a backdoor to a permanent version of Shapechange, normally a 9th level spell with a duration of 10 min./level, AND as a means to instantly kill a possessed creature with no (additional) saving throw allowed.
If you're asking whether all this is allowed under RAW, you are correct. If you're asking whether this is what was intended by the spell in question (specifically, Bilocation), I feel very confident in saying "absolutely not." Whether or not your idea should be allowed is a decision for your GM. I'm confident there are GMs out there who might see this as outside-the-box thinking that deserves to work. I'm equally confident that there are GMs out there who will tolerate it or dismiss it out of hand, depending on what creature you try it on.
* Ezren's physical body vanished when he cast Greater Possession, along with any items he wore and carried at that time. A GM is well within his rights to rule that when the Adult Red Dragon Ezren was possessing disappears, so do all the items on his vanished human form.
** Greater Possession says nothing about artifacts being transferred from the spellcaster's vanished body to the creature he is possessing.
| Pizza Lord |
4. If you dismiss possession you will return to your original body. The troll will be left bilocated. Its bodies, will be under its control, since its soul is in both (as part of the bilocation spell.
I dont really understand this part, how is the control shifted from you to the troll?
The spell bilocates YOUR consciousness, not the troll's.
No, the spell 'bilocates' your body (the body you are in), it then states that you are conscious/present/in control of/sharing both bodies. It is not a compulsion effect. It is not a mind-affecting effect. IF you are in control of one bilocated body, you control the other. If you lose control of one (by leaving it or ending the spell) you lose control of both.
The troll does not gain control of the bilocation spell. It gains control of the bilocated bodies, because it controls one (because it's its body) and therefore controls both (because it's soul was, and is, in both bodies because that's where possession says it is). You still control the bilocation spell, but are limited in how you can exercise that control being outside the body or bodies. Pretty much you can just Dismiss it.
If you cast possession again on one of the trolls, you'd suppress and trap the troll's soul again, in both bodies, and you'd control both bodies. The same as if you did that to a bilocated body of another caster.
In the same way a compulsion effect was on me would follow my soul, a compultion effect cast on the troll would follow his soul and any effect on the body will stay on that body.
In my mind saying that the troll magically obtains control of both bodies is like saying that if i possess someone and then polymorph into a dragon i still retain the dragon form once i go back to my original body, makes no sesen.
Exactly, you did something related to the body. If you cast mirror image in the troll and end the possession, the troll will still have mirror images the troll images don't shift to you as you regain control of your original, nor do they turn into images of you around the troll or yourself. They stay with the troll. If you polymorph the troll into a dragon and then end the possession, the troll is still a dragon. At no point is the troll in control of the mirror images or the polymorph spell. You still are, but there's nothing you can do with that control except Dismiss the spells (which you can't even do with the mirror image because that's not (D) Dismissible).
If you bilocate the troll's body and end the possession effect, the troll's body is still bilocated, and you are not in either of the troll's bodies, because you aren't in one of the troll's bodies (because you aren't possessing it).
The troll is in both bodies as you bilocate because you have possession in effect, and bilocate states that effects are in effect on both bodies, so if you have the troll's soul trapped with you in it's body (as possession explicitly states) then you have the troll's soul trapped with you in both bodies, because you have the same possession spell in effect on both bodies (just like protection from energy's resistance will be reduced by energy damage to either body.
So the troll's soul is in both bodies because that's what the spells say they do explicitly. So if you dismiss one, the other becomes 'official' whether it was the original or the duplicate, and the troll, being the soul in the body, takes control of its body, just as if you didn't bilocate it and had just possessed it and ended the possession.
Let's say you cast magic jar and trap an elf in a gem. Then you cast greater possession and take over a troll (So now you have original body laying dead-like, a magic gem on it, no elf body, since it melds into the troll, and you control the troll). If you, as the troll, pick up the magic gem, and cast bilocation, there's now two identical troll bodies that you control (the duration of spells on you are halved). You are holding two magic jar gem focuses. Both of them have an elf soul in them, but it's not two elf souls, it's the same soul.
If you throw the gem on the ground, it leaves your hand and it vanishes from the other troll's possession and it's just one gem on the ground (as if you'd left it alone). If instead, you decided to transfer your consciousness back into the magic jar, then you'd go from the troll, back into the gem (both gems held by both trolls) and the elf would go from both gems held by both trolls back into its body, which is in a troll (and therefore both trolls). But there's no body, it's in the troll, but that won't stop the soul from going to it, it'll just be in the body of the troll (both trolls).
So now you've got one troll soul (in the correct body) in control of two identical troll bodies, you've got one elf soul, which is in both troll bodies until the troll dies, greater possession ends, or it's dismissed by you (the spell has their body in the target troll(s) but the elf has no control over that spell, it's all mental and not on them, only their body at that point. You, in the gem(s), probably can't do much anything, but your GM will probably let you Dismiss greater possession (which technically ends if you return to your body, but you aren't in your body). At that point, the elf's body will leave the troll; either one troll, either their choice, or random chance, or GM's call or they pop out of both and then one vanishes and becomes real (randomly or not).
---------------------------
The troll is still bilocated until the spell ends. At which point, one becomes real and the other vanishes, as per normal for the spell. A GM may let you decide which one, but other than positioning, it will not matter to the troll. Its soul won't vanish or be destroyed nor will there be a soulless body left behind, not using the combination of spells or usage you are describing.
| Mysterious Stranger |
Bilocation says it creates a duplicate of you, not your current body. I don’t think it will actually create a dragon body.
If Bilocation can duplicate the dragon’s body, it would also have the dragon’s consciousness as well as your own. When Bilocation ends one of the bodies disappears, but the remaining one still has the copiousness of the dragon.
| Azothath |
Possession:N5 Dur:CL hr.
Bilocation:C9 Dur:CL r.
each spell has a finite duration so there will be no permanent effect created by either spell. It is just illogical to assume a created duplicate will stick around. So Bilocation creating a Permanent body is clearly False.
PizzaLord did a decent job trying to explain the mess (but the halving of duration should only occur while Bilocation is in effect). So no this won't work as described, it is simply wrong. Just read the spells and do what they say.
I will say that it can get a bit tricky with spell effects as some target the caster's body/physical ability scores and some (like some curses or negative levels) stick with the caster's soul/spirit/psyche/mental ability scores. You see this effect with Raise Dead and some other spells. The assumption is the caster's current body("you") unless the spell implies otherwise.
If you want to vet some scheme you should try the Advice forum first as they have more leeway and can advise you on how to do it or provide guidance.
| Frostfire v3 |
Frostfire v3 wrote:Greetings people, just noticed a combination that would be useful for my character and i need to have it checked in case i missed something.
...
If I understand you correctly:
Ezren the Wizard casts Greater Possession on an Adult Red Dragon. The dragon fails his Will save. Ezren enters the dragon’s body and his own physical body vanishes.
(Normally, Ezren would be ejected to the closest empty square upon expiration of the spell, 17 hours later (or upon the dragon's death).)
Ezren then casts Bilocation, creating an identical copy of the Adult Red Dragon he is possessing, along with everything the Adult Red Dragon is wearing and carrying at the time of casting*. This halves the remaining duration of the Greater Possession spell.
When Bilocation ends, Ezren decides whether the Adult Red Dragon he is possessing or the duplicate Adult Red Dragon he created with Bilocation disappears. If the Adult Red Dragon he is possessing disappears, Ezren becomes the duplicate Adult Red Dragon. If Ezren is carrying artifacts** while possessing the Adult Red Dragon when he does this, they transfer with his consciousness when he becomes the duplicate.
So what you really want to know is whether Bilocation, a 9th level spell with a duration of 1 round/level can serve as a backdoor to a permanent version of Shapechange, normally a 9th level spell with a duration of 10 min./level, AND as a means to instantly kill a possessed creature with no (additional) saving throw allowed.
If you're asking whether all this is allowed under RAW, you are correct. If you're asking whether this is what was intended by the spell in question (specifically, Bilocation), I feel very confident in saying "absolutely not." Whether or not your idea should be allowed is a decision for your GM. I'm confident there are GMs out there who might see this as outside-the-box thinking that deserves to work. I'm equally confident that there are GMs out there who will tolerate it or dismiss it out of hand,...
I'll say it here once, for all of those commenting about the overpoweredness of te combo.
I agree, the combo is overpowered, expecially for the price required.
And while it is true that you should always ask your GM if he allows for a similar combo it is also true that you can first see if the combo works at all and then propose the concept to him, rebalancing it accordingly.
But im that kind of guy that doesn't like homebrews and if something can be done already within the boundaries of the rules i prefer to use the printed materials and find out some wonky combo, at times with weird restrictions or interactions to pull it off.
In a sense it makes me feel like the sorcerer itself researching its unique ritual.
Now, in response to Phoebus, that's almost what i ment.
My idea was to also turn off possession, retaining your human body and the dragon copy and then turning off Bilocation.
I never ment to use it for an instant kill, that would honestly be an unliked side effect.
| Frostfire v3 |
Possession:N5 Dur:CL hr.
Bilocation:C9 Dur:CL r.each spell has a finite duration so there will be no permanent effect created by either spell. It is just illogical to assume a created duplicate will stick around. So Bilocation creating a Permanent body is clearly False.
PizzaLord did a decent job trying to explain the mess (but the halving of duration should only occur while Bilocation is in effect). So no this won't work as described, it is simply wrong. Just read the spells and do what they say.
I will say that it can get a bit tricky with spell effects as some target the caster's body/physical ability scores and some (like some curses or negative levels) stick with the caster's soul/spirit/psyche/mental ability scores. You see this effect with Raise Dead and some other spells. The assumption is the caster's current body("you") unless the spell implies otherwise.If you want to vet some scheme you should try the Advice forum first as they have more leeway and can advise you on how to do it or provide guidance.
Could you answer to the qestions i asked you please?
To answer the points you brought now, the fact that both spells have limited duration is nonsensical, you just have to read the effect of bilocation.
Also PizzaLord did an awful job explaining how the whole ordeal works because he shifted the control of the spell to the troll while in the text of the spell itself it is specified that it is you under the control of both bodies, with your consciousness as the target for the spell.
And while it is true that the rule for compulsion effects doesnt apply here it it also true that the specific effect of the spell tramples any generic rule there might have been.
You exist in two places at once, not the troll.
Just to quote a random part: " You perceive sensory information from your body and that of your duplicate simultaneously."
This "you" it refers to has to be the mind/soul of the caster or else the spell would make no sense. (they're a little interchangeable in oathfidner at times)
You cannot duplicate the soul of a being, what the heck are you?! A God?!
| Pizza Lord |
Also PizzaLord did an awful job explaining how the whole ordeal works because he shifted the control of the spell to the troll ...
The troll does not gain control of the bilocation spell. ...
You still control the bilocation spell ...
At no point is the troll in control of the mirror images or the polymorph spell. You still are ...
You are a liar! At no point did I ever say the troll was in control of the bilocation or ANY OTHER SPELL. IN FACT I SAID THE EXACT OPPOSITE! You want to ask questions in good faith and act like you want help. Don't start blatantly lying just because you don't like the answers you get.
I don't know what the hell you think you're trying to do, but maybe you can quote where I said the troll gained control of the spell. I stated the troll gains control of the duplicate, not the spell. Because the troll regains control of its body when possession ends. And if a creature is in control of a duplicate, it's in control of both duplicates, because they're the same body, just existing in two places at once. If there's any trolls being created here, I think it's obviously you.
while in the text of the spell itself it is specified that it is you under the control of both bodies
Really? The text specifically says that does it? Well... maybe you could QUOTE IT AND SHOW US! Where is that specified? I bet you can't even find the word 'control' anywhere in the entire spell, let alone your 'specific' text that you control a darned thing.
You can take an action and have the body you're in or the duplicate [of the body you're in] be the origin of that action. If you aren't in control of one of the duplicates, you are in control of none of them. You would still be the spell's caster and in control of the spell, not any duplicates.
with your consciousness as the target for the spell.
Quote it! Show us obviously ignorant peasants where bilocation targets anything at all, or even has a target, because I'm not even seeing a Target line.
It creates a duplicate body somewhere in Close range from you. That's right 'You' not where you're original body is... it counts the location where your current body is, that being the troll. When you cast the spell, the spell's range is measured from there. Your original body and its location is completely irrelevant to anything involved in your entire post.
It's no different than you casting mirror image while in the troll body. The images don't appear around your comatose original body. They appear around your current body (or even no body if you're a ghost floating around) and they look like that body (because it wouldn't be a very effective mirror image if it didn't look like you, would it?!). You aren't in control of the mirror images either. They will move and shift and absorb attacks whether you want them to or not. You are technically still the spell's caster, but you can't even Dismiss them; whatever body you are in.
Bilocation gives you two bodies you control with a single consciousness, ...
Yes, it creates a duplicate of your body and you exist in both locations at the same time.
... and i think the effect ahould follow the soul and not the body.
And you're incorrect. It doesn't. The spell does not target your mind or your consciousness. It creates a duplicate whose location and existence (and health, and status, and spells, and items) both exist together as one, just in two locations. The duplicate will be the troll body, not your original body, where you now have two comatose bodies laying on the ground. Transferring back to your body will not turn the duplicate into your original body.
You exist in two places at once, not the troll.
Incorrect. Because possession says the troll is trapped with you in the body, and possession is shared (because bilocation specifically says that). The effects aren't just the same effects, like two overlapping shield spells, they are the same spell. If a spell on one duplicate gets dispeled it's gone from both, you don't keep one half of the spell or get to have its remaining (halved) duration on the other duplicate. It exists on both duplicates. That means it has the troll's soul in the duplicate. No different than if you were holding a gemstone with someone else's soul in it. Both duplicates would be holding the item and it would be one item that exists in two places at once.
You cannot duplicate the soul of a being, what the heck are you?! A God?!
Nowhere is anyone duplicating a soul. I don't think you can even find the word 'soul' in bilocation anywhere. Maybe it's next to where you found the word 'control'. The spell creates a duplicate body. Very specifically. If possession has a troll's soul trapped in its body (which it does, because that's what it specifically says), then that soul exists (not is split or is two souls), in both duplicates simultaneously, or into three if you cast bilocation again while already bilocating.
The spell is written to work on its own. It's not written to take into account every possible combination of spells or situations. A fly spell inside a globe of invulnerability or antimagic field will perform drastically differently than a fly spell on its own, no matter how much you point out that it should allow you to fly because the wording says it does. bilocation is clearly written from the (reasonable) assumption that a caster will be in their own body. Adding in additional interactions requires cleaving to examples, precedent, intent, and whether it breaks the game or otherwise adds or allows an effect far beyond the typical power level or effects or clearly outside its intended scope (at which point a GM can allow it or not).
Bilocation creates a duplicate of the body you are in and you (and any items, spells, diseases, damage, or souls) contained therein are also duplicated and exist in both locations. Normally, it's assumed that you are in control of you body, and thus, will be in control of the duplicate. If you are not in control of one duplicate, you are in control of no duplicates and anyone in control of one duplicate, such as with dominate is technically in control of both duplicates (through your mind and consciousness) even though it's not directly. Similarly, if the thing allowing you to control your body (in this case the troll's, and that thing being possession) stops letting you control one duplicate, then you don't control any duplicates.
The troll will benefit (not be in control) of any effects left on them, whether it's mirror image, bull's strength, bilocation, or polymorph. Whether they can exercise any actual control over them is irrelevant. In this case, since the troll exists in both locations at the same time, there's no reason or even need, to determine the original body, since it's pointless, even if you got to be the one to choose which duplicate remained (other than the location or position of that duplicate).
It is not implied that you can destroy your original body that isn't part of the spell when you cast it.
-------------------------------------------
Just to quote a random part:
No, how about you quote specific parts that pertain to what you're trying to argue and save us all a lot of time and effort that we put into trying to respond and clarify for you.
| Frostfire v3 |
Frostfire v3 wrote:Also PizzaLord did an awful job explaining how the whole ordeal works because he shifted the control of the spell to the troll ...Pizza Lord wrote:The troll does not gain control of the bilocation spell. ...
You still control the bilocation spell ...Pizza Lord wrote:At no point is the troll in control of the mirror images or the polymorph spell. You still are ...You are a liar! At no point did I ever say the troll was in control of the bilocation or ANY OTHER SPELL. IN FACT I SAID THE EXACT OPPOSITE! You want to ask questions in good faith and act like you want help. Don't start blatantly lying just because you don't like the answers you get.
I don't know what the hell you think you're trying to do, but maybe you can quote where I said the troll gained control of the spell. I stated the troll gains control of the duplicate, not the spell. Because the troll regains control of its body when possession ends. And if a creature is in control of a duplicate, it's in control of both duplicates, because they're the same body, just existing in two places at once. If there's any trolls being created here, I think it's obviously you.
** spoiler omitted **...
"The troll does not gain control of the bilocation spell. It gains control of the bilocated bodies, because it controls one."
Exactly here, where you say that the troll doesnt get control of the spell and then describe how he gets control of the spell.
The fact that you said that is not the case first doesn't change the meaning of what is going on.
When i said "just to quote a random part" was in fact the part of the spell that confirms that you retain control of both bodies.
But you dismissed it saying that i had to quote the spell, wich i just did.
But here's another part of the spell : "When you take any action, you choose which of your bodies performs the action, but both bodies share the same pool of actions"
Necessarily implying that it is your mind controlling two bodies and if fore some reason the troll ends up controlling two bodies then he must have necessarily taken control of the spell.
What kind of help are you giving me here to be precise?
You make me think you didn't even read the spell.
| Azothath |
effects of casting Possession:N5 , and then Bilocation:C9 spells and effect on select other spells(Mage Armor:A1, Blur:I2, Ablative Barrier:A3) and dismissal options for Wizard class Spellcasting ability score 20 and 17th caster level with HP:70 for a 'close to RAW' viewpoint.
>> Note: Possession and Magic Jar have expanded RAW in Occult Adv and FAQs CRB & Prot E, it can be important as things get tricky and some GM decisions may be needed.
Start of Day
A wizard starts his day at 08:00 casting mage armor (dur to 25:00:00 or 01:00 next day), ablative barrier (dur to 25:00:06 or 50pts damage), then phantom steed (mov:100ft, dur to 25:10:12 or 24pts damage at AC 18) as he is going adventuring to find a Troll, Lrg hmnoid(giant) CR5, Lang:Giant and implement his plan. Tokens are Med'W' & Lrg'H'.
He rides for a few hours (13:00) until he spots a troll about 130ft away, GM starts melee and troll perceives Wizard on Steed (so no surprise). Wizard wins initiative. {round by round}
1> Fearing an increased DC for casting while riding Wizard dismounts (move) and casts blur(dur to 13:17:00). Troll double moves towards him so now only 70ft away.
2> Wizard casts possession Will DC20 (dur to 30:00:06) targeting troll(T1), wizard's body(W) drops prone and "appears to be dead". Troll gets 14 and fails save and is thus possessed by "life force" of caster. Troll's "soul" is trapped in troll's body(T1), see spell for what stays and goes. The Home GM rules regeneration(ex) is a natural/automatic ability and starts when lethal or nonlethal damage is taken, rend(ex) is not and cannot be accessed by the possessing caster. The wizard finishes his action by taking a move towards his body (40ft away) and ignores the mental complaints by the imprisoned troll. Spell target "you" for the caster is now T1.
3> Wizard(T1) moves to his body(W & H).
4> Wizard does some rearranging of equipment (spare spell component belt pouch and large belt, etc). Then secures his body on the phantom steed (H) using slip knot (easy escape). Assesses the situation.
Caster's body(Med W) has mage armor, ablative barrier, blur, possession spells ongoing. Phantom steed (Lrg H) is still active.
Troll(Lrg T1) has possession ongoing, that's it! Uses 2 pearls of power to recall mage armor and blur.
10(13:01:00)> Wizard casts mage armor (dur until 30:01:00){"you" is T1, T1 is touched}.
11> Wizard casts blur (dur until 13:18:06){"you" is T1, T1 is touched}.
12> Wizard casts bilocation (dur until 13:02:54, 17r) {"you" is T1} creating another identical troll (tokens T1 & T2) body 60ft away and all spells on troll (possession, mage armor, blur) begin to expire at double the normal rate {"you" is now T1 & T2}. He spends his move action looking around in wonder.
13> Injures himself as T2 with claw {HP:61} to check regeneration which starts.
14> HP:66, yay. Wizard dances and uses cantrip (as T1) in excitement.
15-19> does stuff. HP:70.
We can go three ways at this point; A) dismissing bilocation, or B) caster returning to his body(W) thus possession expires, or C) continue as troll(s) until bilocation expires.
Scenario A
20(13:02:00)> Wizard dismisses bilocation choosing to appear as T2 thus T1 disappears. As 8 rounds passed 16 rounds (00:01:36) are deducted from duration of possession (W & T2), mage armor(T2) & blur(T2). Duration for other spells on W and phantom steed(H) are expiring at the normal rate.
--W: mage armor exp(25:00:00), ablative barrier exp(25:00:06|HP:50), blur exp(13:17:00), possession(29:58:30 or 05:58:30 next day).
--H: phantom steed exp(25:10:12 or 01:10:12 next day).
--T2: mage armor exp(29:59:24), blur exp(13:16:30), possession(29:58:30).
so the wizard can adventure as T2 having the phantom steed keep W within 270ft in case bad things happen. Blur expires T2(13:16:30) & W(13:17:00).
At some point the wizard returns his stuff to H, then wanders off as T2 and returns to his body causing possession spell to expire, freeing T2(who is T1 from the beginning). Mage armor is likely to persist on T2 for a short time.
Scenario B
20(13:02:00)> Wizard returns to body(W) causing possession to expire, bilocation(T1&T2) remains ongoing. As 8 rounds passed 16 rounds (00:01:36) are deducted from duration of possession (W & T2), mage armor(T2) & blur(T2). Duration for other spells on W and phantom steed(H) are expiring at the normal rate.
--W: mage armor exp(25:00:00), ablative barrier exp(25:00:06|HP:50), blur exp(13:17:00), possession(expired).
--H: phantom steed exp(25:10:12 or 01:10:12 next day).
--T1 & T2: mage armor exp(29:59:24), blur exp(13:16:30), bilocation exp(13:02:54, 9 more rounds to go).
It is likely the wizard (who has initiative) uses his move action to have the phantom steed move away from the two trolls (T1 & T2) who will likely attempt to attack him. The wizard will have to get free so he can cast and escape. The bilocation on the trolls will expire shortly (let's say the troll chooses T1 as it's confusing when bilocation ends), then the blur will expire on T1(losing 34r rather than 17 due to bilocation's effect on ongoing spell duration), and finally the mage armor will expire on T1(again losing 34r rather than 17). Meanwhile he's a rather hard to hit troll.
Scenario C
20(13:02:00)> Wizard adventures about or casts other spells until bilocation expires at (13:02:54) and he chooses T2 thus T1 disappears. As 17 rounds passed 34 rounds (00:03:24) are deducted from duration of possession (W & T2), mage armor(T2) & blur(T2). Duration for other spells on W and phantom steed(H) are expiring at the normal rate.
--W: mage armor exp(25:00:00), ablative barrier exp(25:00:06|HP:50), blur exp(13:17:00), possession(29:58:30 or 05:58:30 next day).
--H: phantom steed exp(25:10:12 or 01:10:12 next day).
--T2: mage armor exp(29:57:36), blur exp(13:14:42), possession(29:56:42).
so the wizard can adventure as T2 having the phantom steed keep W within 270ft in case bad things happen. Blur expires on T2(13:14:42) & W(13:17:00).
At some point the wizard returns his stuff to H, then wanders off as T2 and returns to his body causing possession spell to expire, freeing T2(who is T1 from the beginning). Mage armor is likely to persist on T2 for a short time.
| Azothath |
effects of casting Possession:N5, and then Bilocation:C9 spells and effect on select other spells(Mage Armor:A1, Blur:I2, Ablative Barrier:A3) and dismissal options for Wizard class Spellcasting ability score 20 and 17th caster level with HP:70 for a 'close to RAW' viewpoint.
...
(Scenarios)...
when possession spell ends/expires the caster is back in his body and "you" for spell targeting becomes W again.
| Pizza Lord |
But here's another part of the spell : "When you take any action, you choose which of your bodies performs the action, but both bodies share the same pool of actions"
If you're not in the troll's body, it isn't your body. The duplicate is also not your body. Just because it was created by a spell you cast or control, does not make the duplicate your body, unless you are in control of the body, which you aren't in your own example.
Just to quote a random part: " You perceive sensory information from your body and that of your duplicate simultaneously."
...
was in fact the part of the spell that confirms that you retain control of both bodies.
It has nothing to do with control. It just tells you that you can perceive things from each duplicate.
If you cast possession on the troll, and then the troll's friend (CL 1) comes over casts protection from evil on it. It gets a new save (at +2) against your possession. It passes and now your spell is suppressed. You aren't expelled, you are still in the troll, can still see and hear and all that, but cannot exercise any control. This is what happens for the next 1 minute until that spell expires (since possession has a longer duration. The fact that you can see, hear, or perceive what's happening around the troll (because you're inhabiting the body) does not allow you control, despite the wording of the possession spell. You cannot exercise any control over either body, neither the original or the duplicate.
It would be exactly the same, if you had bilocated the troll (except the protection from evil would expire twice as fast, in 5 rounds as per bilocates wording). You would be able to see, perceive, smell, and hear everything that the troll does while your consciousness is suppressed in the troll, and in fact, from the locations of both duplicates, but you have no control. You could end possession and return to your body, but you would still have no control over either troll. Bilocate will not make the duplicated body be under your control when you aren't controlling the body it duplicates.
"You perceive sensory information from your body and that of your duplicate simultaneously." does not imply, create or in any way pertain to control of anything. It only applies to what you can perceive and how.
Exactly here, where you say that the troll doesnt get control of the spell and then describe how he gets control of the spell.
The troll doesn't get control of the spell. I don't know how many times you need to hear it. Just because you cast mage armor on an ally, they don't control the spell. They get all the benefits, it follows them around wherever they go, they detect as magic, if they get hit with a spell that does damage based on the number of spells active on them it hurts them not you, but they don't control the spell. You can Dismiss it whenever you want (following the rules for Dismissing Spells). Just because they get all the benefits of having the spell, they don't suddenly gain control of it.
If you possess a troll and cast levitate on the troll's body (target 'You or willing creature') while you're in control of it and levitate 100 feet off the ground and then end possession, the troll still has the levitate spell on it. It's still levitating. It can't end the spell because it might be unwilling now, since that's only for targeting at the time of casting. Reading the spell, the spell's wording also says a creature must be willing to be levitated, so at this point you can't move it up or down without its permission/willingness. That won't end the spell on it, though and that doesn't mean that because the troll can prevent you from moving it further or is even benefiting from it, that it's in control of the spell. You still control the spell, even if there's nothing you can do with it (other than Dismiss it). A spell being on a creature and that creature being in control of it are two different things.
Diego Rossi
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My idea was to also turn off possession, retaining your human body and the dragon copy and then turning off Bilocation..
As a standard action, you can shift freely back to your own body regardless of range, so long as it remains on the same plane. If the host’s body is killed, you return to your own body and the life force of the host departs (it is dead). If your body is slain, when the spell expires or the host’s body is killed, you are slain. It is possible to cast this spell on a new target from within another creature’s body; this resets the duration. You still return to your original body (not any intermediate body) when you take a standard action to do so or the spell’s duration expires. Returning to your body ends the spell. Creatures whose souls are their bodies, such as incorporeal undead and non-native outsiders, use the effects of greater possession instead.
You can't "turn off possession" and "retain your human body and the dragon copy". When you turn off Possession you return to your original body. You do not return to any other body. Both bodies created by Bilocation are now under the control of the dragon mind.
Bilocation clearly states that it doesn't create a second spell, but the same spell is shared on both bodies.
The two bodies are affected by attacks, spells, and effects as though they were one person,
so, when you decide to "turn off the possession" it apples to both bodies.
| Azothath |
dismissing a spell has some rules and requires the caster to be in the spell's range. For personal/you, touch spells that can make things complicated when possession/magic jar comes into play.