Found a way to obtain Hellfire Ray early, but it either uses a very RAW reading of the cleric's domain ability.
Cleric:
A cleric gains one domain spell slot for each level of cleric spell she can cast, from 1st on up.
So if we manage to cast spells of higher level than the class usually could we gain access to higher level slots.
To do so we use the Heighten Metamagic feat paired with Wyang Spellhunter trait and Magical Lineage trait, this increases the effective level of a level one spell to 3, granting us a third level domain slot.
It's a debated topic if these traits work with Heighten Metamagic but the guy thay wrote them give the greenlight.
It's also a debated topic for some in the Pathfinder community if Heighten Metamagic truly makes a spell a higher level one, but it's a very well enstablished mechanic in DnD 3.5 where it is used to access prestige classes early.
For an extra spell level yu could carry a Djezet for 24 hours.
When used as an additional material component, a dose of djezet increases the effective spell level by 1, which stacks with a heightened spell.
And finally there's the Equipment Trick: Sunrod feat that increases the spell level by 1 for ALL purposes, even those not intended by the developers.
If Hellfire Ray was a spell inside any domain the combo would be over already, but sadly it doesn't seem to be so having high slots is not enough.
We need 1 level dip in Loremaster for the secret feature to take the Secret of Magical Discipline feat, that spell allows us to cast any spell in the game.
Sadly it is only available to a character of 8th level and above because of the skill rank requirement.
The only workaround RAW , if you DM permits it, is being a Wyrwood and taking the Craft Construct feat to add 2HD to the Pc at level 5 and take the prestige class at 6th.
Then if you take the Preferred Spell feat you can chose a single spell and cast it spontaneously by sacrificing another spell slot, this allows you to sacrifice your domain slots for Hellfire Rays.
Quite a convoluted way to achieve what you asked for but maybe it can help you. :)
Just noticed an incredible interaction between the Disgorge Familiar ability of the Putrefactor Witch and the Bilocation spell, the combo has incredible potential for an incredibly low investment but it also has some major weaknesses i would like to cover.
The combo works like this:
- 1 level in putrefactor witch, for Disgorge Familiar
Disgorge Familiar (Ex)
As a standard action, a putrefactor can cough up her familiar, allowing it to act as a separate entity. She can also devour it again as a standard action when the familiar is within reach. While within her, the familiar cannot be targeted for effects or take any action, but effects affecting it persist, and their duration continues until the next time she disgorges it.
- Possess the familiar using a scroll of Greater Possession
- While inside the familiar cast Bilocation
Bilocation:
The spell creates an identical copy of you, along with everything you wear and carry, anywhere you choose within range; you exist in two places at once until the spell ends. You and the duplicate use the same statistics and share the same resources.
If the duplicate takes damage, for example, you deduct the damage from your hit point total. Similarly, if your duplicate expends a charge or daily use from a magic item you both wield, the charge or daily use is expended from the item you carry. If you or the duplicate drops or gives away something you’re carrying, the item disappears from the other body as well. This spell doesn’t duplicate artifacts; any you possess remain on you.
You perceive sensory information from your body and that of your duplicate simultaneously. The spell enables you to process the sensations so you don’t find them disorienting.
When you take any action, you choose which of your bodies performs the action, but both bodies share the same pool of actions. For instance, if you take a standard action to cast a spell, You can use either body as the point of origin, but the other body can’t also take a standard action that round. Likewise, if your duplicate takes a full-round action, you couldn’t take a standard or move action. Both bodies can take any number of free actions as usual; for example, both bodies could say different things or each drop a different item. If either body doesn’t move during the round, that body can either take a 5-foot step or move your speed once as a free action.
[b]The two bodies are affected by attacks, spells, and effects as though they were one person[b/], taking the worse effect when applicable (for example, if the bodies would be subject to differing effects due to being at different ranges). If both bodies are in the area of the same fireball, you would attempt the saving throw only once and take the damage only once. If one body is targeted by hold person, both would become paralyzed on a failed save.
Both bodies count as a single creature for effects that target a specific number of creatures, and they can’t be chosen more than once for such effects. You do count your other body as another creature for most combat effects, such as flanking or determining cover. However, you don’t count as two unique creatures for the purposes of teamwork feats or effects you use that can target only creatures other than yourself.
Any magical effect with a duration affecting you has its duration halved while you’re bilocating. For example, the hold person spell mentioned above would lose 2 rounds’ worth of duration per round until your duplicate disappeared.
If you were under an eagle’s splendor effect that had 1 minute remaining when you cast bilocation, the effect would end after 5 rounds instead of 10. An effect shortened in this way lasts a minimum of 1 round total, and if an effect that lasts an odd number of rounds has 1 round remaining, it has its full effect on both of your bodies for that round.
When the spell ends, you decide whether you or your duplicate disappears. If you disappear, you become your duplicate. If you are carrying artifacts when you do this, they transfer with your consciousness.
- Eat your familiar with Disgorge Familiar.
I've bolded the interesting parts, but essentially what happens is that the effects on the familiar stay forever on him until he gets disgorged.
By possessing the familiar and bilocating while inside his body the PC obtains a copy of the body of the familiar that shares all the spells cast on him.
Then we just need to eat the familiar we're possessing with the other body that's under the Pc's control.
Now any spell that is cast on the Pc will last until the familiar we ate is disgorged.
This can be extremely powerful but it has a bery big weakness, dispells and antimagic fields.
Having the clone dispelled essentially ends the combo and requires some major setup to restart.
If the hellfire damage is what you like you can take the improved version of the Planar Infusion feat: Hell to change the fire damage you deal into unholy fire.
Improved Whenever you deal fire damage, you can instead deal hellfire damage (see below). Secondary fires lit by your initial fire attack deal normal fire damage (including burn damage, if such damage occurs)
Possession doesn't change your type, as it is a temporary effect. Mind Swap, Greater, does change your type. So, the interaction with other effects changes.
And "Planar heritage also says you count as a human, so even if you swap races youre still a human and the feat still works." is circular logic. "I can have the feat because I am human because the feat says that I am human."
What do you are at the end, in your mind? An "Aranea, Human, Half Shadow Demon"?
Maybe you should go and read the threads about Tail terror and Tacial heritage: Kobold.
Possession doesn't change your type while Mind Swap does is a made up rule, both change your types.
I don't care if it is circular logic, it works by RAW.
Stacking templates is nothing new, you cam be things even weirder than thay Aranea Human Demon.
But anyway, i give up.
The only one replying is you and you're not helpful in any way, it feels like instead of helping me understand the rules you want me to accept those you make up in your mind.
Never had a conversation with you like this, but to be honest i noticed your name in an astounding amount of threads and your advices are always overly restrictive, made up or wrong.
So much so that you became a personal meme for me.
I gave it a shot anyway, knowing what i was going into and i'm honestly not surprised.
1) I believe Paizo advising the players to do the switch is enought to convey their intent.
Did you expect them to write: Switch to possession, or else the next book will cost 20% more!
They said "consider" because the use of Possession instead of Magic Jar wasn't considered in the earlier books, so the change requires GM adjudication in all corner cases.
I wonder if that is because possession didn't exist at the time and it was printed just to substitute magic jar lol
I see you continue to move the goal, one moment you cite Grater Possession, the next Mind Swap, Major.
When I did say:
Diego Rossi wrote:
When you take over permanently the aranea body,
I thought it was clear it was about Mind Swap, Major.
Frostfire v3 wrote:
2) Your ruling about being an Aranea is a little wierd since you still retain your Spell-Like abilities you got from being a Half-Fiend and your whole body is inside of the target since it uses Greater Possession.
If we move back to Possession it is correct, but when we speak of Mind Swap, Major we speak of an (almost) irreversible change of type. Only other spells that allow you to change your type will reverse the change.
The instantaneous change to aranea is the basis of your whole argument. At that point, you are an aranea, while the other guy is a half-fiend with your old body.
I dont see the problem in using possession as the base for my examples since it is the same spell that is used as a base for both possession and Mind Swap, Major.
Ans since Mind Swap IS posssssion but with instantaneous duration the ruling HAS to be the same for both the temporary and permanent version.
The fact that it seems more permanent to your eyes doesn't change the ruling because it still uses possesion and it's rules as its base.
Also i don't know what you're talking about with moving my goal, what goal?
I corrected myself about me being wrong about half demons, really thought they were the same.
Every rules that works with possession must be applied to mind swap major since they both use the same base with the same rules, repeating myself here.
Planar heritage also says you count as a human, so even if you swap races youre still a human and the feat still works.
The other work around is using human guise so the target always counts as a human as long as he is in human form, wich is the solution i proposed in the first post to become an aranea.
The half demon feat is Planar Heritage - Half demon, i believe it shpuld work in the same way as Racial Heritage Half Elf, expecially in the light of half demons truly being their own specific race, like in the description you posted.
About Mind Swap not being Magic Jar, it's explained by paizo that possession is magic jar and that it should be substituted.
Incorrect. Paizo said that should consider substituting Mind Jar with Possession. That means that the GM should adapt everything that comes with that substitution. It isn't a 1 to 1 equivalency.
Just to point out a different problem. When you take over permanently the aranea body, you aren't any more a half-fiend human, you are an aranea.
As a consequence, you aren't any more a demon or a half-demon (the prerequisite for Demonic Possession) so Demonic Possession stops working. Problem solved, you don't have the aranea spells anymore.
Another little tidbit where you missed some rules:
Demonic possession wrote:
Prerequisites: Demon or half-demon, Cha 21, Wis 17
Half-fiend doesn't make you a half-demon, that is a specific template.
Half-demon wrote:
When a demon breeds with a mortal humanoid, the resulting birth is often a specific sub-category of half-fiend—a half-demon. Certain rituals can ensure that the resulting child is a half-demon rather than a half-fiend: such rituals are common in certain demon-worshiping cults, and some demons seek to sire or birth such children for their own sinister purposes.
From the text of the half-demon template, you can get it only at birth.
For your trick, you need the Fourth Apotheosis, which specifically transforms you into a demon.
1) I believe Paizo advising the players to do the switch is enought to convey their intent.
Did you expect them to write: Switch to possession, or else the next book will cost 20% more!
2) Your ruling about being an Aranea is a little wierd since you still retain your Spell-Like abilities you got from being a Half-Fiend and your whole body is inside of the target since it uses Greater Possession.
I'm also quite sure that since the minds inside a possessed body can be targeted separately the character should still be treated as an Half fiend in that regard.
Not only that but the situation would still be present if instead of using the half-demon template for my example i said the character has the Planar Heritage:Nabasu or Half Demon feat that would be retained while possessing.
But this is not important for the interaction anymore, i explained in a previous post that i noticed how Possession/Magic Jar don't allow you to use Su ans Sla special abilities but all the others are allowed and the racial spellcasting is neither.
This means that you cannot use the spells known by the creature possessed but you still retain the ability for yourself.
3) Even tho it's called Half Fiend template all of the fiends you can become are indeed demons, like Half-Balor.
And funnily enough there is no such thing as an Half demon in pathfinder wich makes me truly believe they're the same thing.
I have no idea where you found that quote, it points to me being wrong but i couldn't find anything abuout these half demons, not even a statblock.
The Fourth Apotheosis would definitely work, didn't think it was necessary, it would have worked better for the example probably.
Planar heritage would have been better also, but i didn't want to get into the debate if a monster has a race or not.
Edit: I'm wrong on point 3, half fiend is the aqquired templare and if you get it from birth you're an half demon with all the cool stuff.
1) Right.. but if you permanently become that monster and then advance in you class levels.. aren't you advancing a monster?
[Assuming we are talking about greater mind swap in this case, which allows permanent body and mind swapping]
No. Technically you are advancing yourself. You are already assumed to be using an elite array (even if your campaign's ability score generation isn't point-buy or random roll or even worse than elite array might have allowed because you rolled poorly).
You, the character, are assumed to have the stats of a unique or classed creature in most expectations. You would not get to add +4, +4, +2, +2, 0, –2 to [the/your new] body's current abilities on leveling in your new body. You already have classes and thus the body has those, it's no longer a separate thing from your character, just like if you created or started the character as an aranea (though your hit points and HD will be different).
You're no longer a 10th-level elf sorcerer in an aranea's body, you're a 10th-level aranea sorcerer that started life as an elf (but you'd have the hit points of the 10th-level elf sorcerer you were, adjusted for the aranea body's Con, as per greater mind swap.) And the aranea would be in an elf body, they'd have low-light vision, Stealth or Perception skill bonuses, etc. and they'd have their spell-like abilities. (Mind swap is not magic jar for purposes of Improved Possession, so you wouldn't get the body's SLA and such like you would in those cases).
Technically, you'd still be in a 3HD creature's body, which could influence some of your body's ability DCs (assuming you are ruling mind swap to be valid with Improved Possession, which by the Rules it wouldn't, but if you house-ruled it that way). But you'd not have the hit points of a 3 HD aranea.
I never intended for the character to gain those bonus stats, in the opening post the question is specifically about what happens when you permanently become a creature with caster levels and if they stack LIKE in the monster rules.
I believe your ruling might be right on the bonus attributes in thise situation.
But being honest i know there's some exceptions, like the swan maiden turning you into another swan maiden and making you lose all your class levels, in that case once you gain your first new class level you should gain those bonus stats by those rules logic.
I have to correct you, the Aranea cannot retain any Spell-Like abilities because he doesn't have any.
An Aranea has spells like a sorcerer, that ability is neither Sp or Su so when you possess it you retain it like an Ex ability the body had. (Fast healing for example)
About Mind Swap not being Magic Jar, it's explained by paizo that possession is magic jar and that it should be substituted.
Diego posted it before.
It says: since Magic Jar works like crap since 3.5 we decided to write it like a proper human would and we advise you to use that instead.
Quoted from the book itself.
Improved possession was created before they made the simplified version called Possession while Mind Swap came after.
Obviously they're not gonna use the dated and broken version of the spell but the improved one they've made for future reference.
And since they printed a rule that says you should sunstitute the spell they didn't bother making an errata for each Magic Jar entry in the game.
Edit: you're probably referring to the fact that Imoroved Possession only works with the SLA.
I doubt that because there is a dot in the middle of the sentence.
The first part improves the SLA while the second improves all possessions.
Similarly to how other feats and magic items have been ruled to work when two sentences were separated by a dot.
I believe a shadow demon casting possession should still benefit from the feat, both RAW and RAI.
Edit edit: I just realized that improved possession is not needed at all for the combo, because i don't care about using his prepared or known spells but i care about his Spells Ability and that is retained by the base possession.
Cannot use the spells he knows but you can use his inherent magical abilities.
the advancing a monster rules are for a gm, not really designed with players using them.
things like "Add Class Levels
Once you have determined the creature’s role, it’s time to add class levels. The first step of this process is to modify the creature’s ability scores. Creatures with class levels receive +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 adjustments to their ability scores, assigned in a manner that enhances their class abilities" shouldn't apply to players, especially with body swap shenanigans.
or would you say the other rules like "A monster with class levels always possesses treasure equal to an NPC of a level equal to the monster’s final CR (as calculated in Step 3, below). To determine the value of this gear, use the value listed for a heroic NPC of that level, as listed in Table NPC Gear." and have npc wealth for no discernable in game reason?
I know this, but since it is also possible for a PC to become a monster those rules are the closest thing that has been printed that can solve the situation. (That i could find)
Let's say those rules didn't exist at all and the character still found itself in the situation of being a monster with racial sorcerer levels while being a sorcerer itself.
How would you proceed?
From the faerie dragon page:
"Spells
A faerie dragon casts spells as a 3rd-level sorcerer "
From the Sorcerer's Spells entry:
"A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of her choice. At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known"
Judging by the ability's description the only logical way to proceed, in my view, is to have it stack, simply starting 3 levels higher in the Sorcerer's Spells Knowk tab.
The monster's race truly has the casting abilities of a sorcerer, minus the bloodline.
For sure i wouldn't have two separate sorcerer progressions.
The bestiary entry is only there to reinforce the argument, even if we chose to disregard those rules the situation can still occour.
Anyway, you guys figured out the interaction by yourselves but i'm quite unsure with Diego's ruling on having two separate sorcerer classes.
I believe that disregarding those rules creates more confusion l, with two separate pools instead of one.
It seems to me that the pc would end up being a monster with class levels in all senses and so those rules should apply to him.
The rules on the bestiary are for advancing a monster. You aren't advancing any monster, you are possessing one.
Frostfire v3 wrote:
Regarding human guise, the feat allows you to be treated as being a human for targetting purposes making the aranea effectively a human.
Mind Swap Major requires a target of your same race for a permanent (instantaneous, truly permanent) Magic Jar effect.
The improved possession feat improves all of your magic jar effects, not only the one from the SLA.
But you aren't a human anymore, you are an outsider (native).
Half Fiend template wrote:
Type: The creature's type changes to outsider (native). Do not recalculate HD, BAB, or saves.
Mind Swap Major uses Possession, not Magic Jar.
Quote:
Possession and Magic Jar
The old magic jar spell is unwieldy, particularly with respect to creatures like ghosts and shadow demons that don’t really use a jar at all. Consider replacing magic jar with the new possession spells for both spellcasters and monsters. Likewise, consider using spells based on possession rather than magic jar.
"Consider" means that the swap isn't automatic.
To put it in simple terms, you are taking pieces of rules from several splatbooks and mixing and matching them, disregarding some of the rules involved and taking for granted things that your GM should decide.
At this point asking a RAW opinion has little use. Ask your GM.
For a home game his opinion is what matters.
1) Right.. but if you permanently become that monster and then advance in you class levels.. aren't you advancing a monster?
Expecially if you use Mind Swap, Major.
In a different case, if you get reincarnated into a Bugbear (wich is a monster in all respects) or become a ghoul (wich is also a template, but usually you become the creature itself)
when you take a level aren't you advancing a creature?
2) Type and Race are two distinct things, and the character still retains the human subtype while being an outsider.
Mind Swap Major only cares about the race.
3) Even tho Mind Swap uses possession as it's base all of the interactions i mentioned still work with it.
4) I would'nt have to look for rules everywhere if they, for example, were organized in a logical manner instead of being spread around 20 books.
Also your disregard for some rules is incomprehensible to me, what are you doing in the rules subsection?
Cohorts necessitate of those same rules, yet i've never heard anyone specifically saying that they have to be ignored because they come from a splat book or because they are not inherently related to cohorts.
5) And while it is true that a GM has the last word on rulings it is also true that i's more intelligent to know the rules as they are before changing them.
And on this note i would like to know what rules i'm disregarding, wich is the reason of this post itself.
But also note that i specified i'm doing this for fun, implying i'm by myself.
What is the point of making a character for fun if i chose how the rules work instead of using the game mechanics?!
I didn't post those feat because i thought they were widely known and just a google search away whike the monster advancement rules are very well hidden i didn't expect anyone to know about them.
Next time i'll post all of the proper links.
Anyway, you guys figured out the interaction by yourselves but i'm quite unsure with Diego's ruling on having two separate sorcerer classes.
I believe that disregarding those rules creates more confusion l, with two separate pools instead of one.
It seems to me that the pc would end up being a monster with class levels in all senses and so those rules should apply to him.
Also worth noting that Magic jar mentions that you don't retain spell-like abilities and supernatural ones, racial spells are a special ability that is neither Su or Sp so it should be retained like Ex abilities.
Even an unimproved Magic Jar should retain the racial spellcasting BUT he is not allowed to utilize those spells because It's specified that you cannot cast the body's spells.
Regarding human guise, the feat allows you to be treated as being a human for targetting purposes making the aranea effectively a human.
Mind Swap Major requires a target of your same race for a permanent (instantaneous, truly permanent) Magic Jar effect.
The improved possession feat improves all of your magic jar effects, not only the one from the SLA.
Essentially this forces a situation where you can sleep and prepare new spells because the effects is long enough and differently from a normal magic jar its not temporary.
The question being, would the fact that the Aranea is your true new body change anything regarding the interaction?
You're an human sorcerer pf tenth level that just did the Third Apotheosis ritual to become an half-fiend and you retrained two of your feats for Possession and Improved Possession.
If you possess an Aranea, that has a racial sorcerer caster level of 5 does it stack with your sorcerer levels as per monster rules?
"Step 2: Add Class Levels
Once you have determined the creature’s role, it’s time to add class levels. The first step of this process is to modify the creature’s ability scores. Creatures with class levels receive +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 adjustments to their ability scores, assigned in a manner that enhances their class abilities. Creatures with NPC class levels do not receive adjustments to their ability scores.
Next, add the class levels to the monster, making all of the necessary additions to its HD, hit points, BAB, CMB, CMD, feats, skills, spells, and class features. If the creature possesses class features (such as spellcasting or sneak attack) for the class that is being added, these abilities stack. This functions just like adding class levels to a character without racial Hit Dice"
Do you stack them with yours when calculating your spells each day? (Possession lasts 24 hours when improved)
What if the Aranea had the Human Guise feat and counted as a human like yourself so that Mind Swap, Major could be used instead?
In short, is there any way in game to access those extra racial caster levels and have them stack with yours?
Obbiously i'm already aware it could be unbalanced but lately i've been looking for the extremes raw allows, for fun. (Except for infinite combos because i dislike them)
This quote about animated object confirms that i'm right since its a specific rule for the spell animate object and not for any other construct created by a spell.
Pathetic. You are so wrapped up in your own arrogant thoughts that you don't listen to anything.
You said wrote:
Interestingly Skinsend seem to even work inside an Antimagic Field by the spell's descriotion: "The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting."
Because of your wrong understanding, you think the sentence means "all constructs are automatically considered as self-supporting", thus you said "skinsend is self-supporting construct".
You said wrote:
This quote about animated object confirms that i'm right since its a specific rule for the spell animate object and not for any other construct created by a spell.
So your initial interpretation, "every construct is self-supporting" is definitely denied by the Animated Object rule. But, you somehow still thinking that "skinsend is self-supporting construct".
There is not such things as "because Animated Object is affected by antimagic, then all constructs except it are not affected", the Dev is not going to list down one by one like teaching kindergarten.
If you are expecting only "voice of agreement", then you are not worthy for any further reply.
If you dont like how the game works don't play it.
If a spell specifies a particular interaction with another that only applies to that specific spell, even if the same reasoning could be applied to a different but similar spell.
What you're doing is houseruling when i specifically asked for RAW rulings.
I don't care that you think a construct animated with Animate Onject is more similar to one created with Skinsend than a regular permanent one.
Rules As Written means that you only apply the rules that are written on the spell, not those you make up with your mind because you believe that is how it should work, even if the rules at times don't make logical sense.
I asked for RAW, if i want to make any kind of modification to it i'll be the one to do it.
You also call me pathetic for not agreeing with your flawed arguments, i wonder who is truly pathetic here.
Honestly i don't expect the "voice of agreement", but i expected people able to read a post and read spell effects and then comment based and what is written there and not his personal interpretation.
Happy that you will not participate any further to this discussion.
Edit: Went looking around for where the quote from animate objects comes from because it's not from the spell or the animated objects page either.
It comes from a page about crafting constructs.
This means the quote is not referring only to Animate Objects as the spell but to the whole category.
I was sure the quote was coming from the spell itself, in wich case i would have been right, but i was not.
Meaning that both of you were right in saying that by RAW skinsend doesn't work inside a Antimagic Field.
Still your behaviour for such a minor thing tells much about you, such an overreaction just because i insisted a little thinking that i was in the right, I can confirm i'm happy you won't comment any further.
Also PizzaLord did an awful job explaining how the whole ordeal works because he shifted the control of the spell to the troll ...
Pizza Lord wrote:
The troll does not gain control of the bilocation spell. ...
You still control the bilocation spell ...
Pizza Lord wrote:
At no point is the troll in control of the mirror images or the polymorph spell. You still are ...
You are a liar! At no point did I ever say the troll was in control of the bilocation or ANY OTHER SPELL. IN FACT I SAID THE EXACT OPPOSITE! You want to ask questions in good faith and act like you want help. Don't start blatantly lying just because you don't like the answers you get.
I don't know what the hell you think you're trying to do, but maybe you can quote where I said the troll gained control of the spell. I stated the troll gains control of the duplicate, not the spell. Because the troll regains control of its body when possession ends. And if a creature is in control of a duplicate, it's in control of both duplicates, because they're the same body, just existing in two places at once. If there's any trolls being created here, I think it's obviously you.
** spoiler omitted **...
"The troll does not gain control of the bilocation spell. It gains control of the bilocated bodies, because it controls one."
Exactly here, where you say that the troll doesnt get control of the spell and then describe how he gets control of the spell.
The fact that you said that is not the case first doesn't change the meaning of what is going on.
When i said "just to quote a random part" was in fact the part of the spell that confirms that you retain control of both bodies.
But you dismissed it saying that i had to quote the spell, wich i just did.
But here's another part of the spell : "When you take any action, you choose which of your bodies performs the action, but both bodies share the same pool of actions"
Necessarily implying that it is your mind controlling two bodies and if fore some reason the troll ends up controlling two bodies then he must have necessarily taken control of the spell.
What kind of help are you giving me here to be precise?
The question is, what happens to your skin by RAW if you were under a transmutation effect like a Wild Shape or a polymorph?
A transmutation effect, at the time of casting skinsend should apply to the skin or be considered linked. If you are wild shaped or polymorphed then the skin will resemble that creature. If the duration of one of those effects ends or is dispelled at your body or your skin, then it should end in both places. Example, if you look like a dragon, your skin will look like a dragon. If you (your body) turns back into a troll, then the skin will assume the shape of a troll. Transmutations cast after the separation should only effect that aspect (the body or the skin, whichever the effect targets).
That should suffice for most common issues, but there's too many possible spells or effects to have a one-size-fits-all answer. For example, a GM could easily rule that having a spell that covers your skin in thorns will only be on the skin when it comes off and not also be on your (presumably skinless) body.
Other effects, like abjurations or Enchantments probably would not go with your skin. You could probably cast them later while inside your skin, assuming they apply to constructs or creatures with no Con.
Frostfire v3 wrote:
If my reasoning is all correct, by a RAW standpoint, an Extended Skinsend could be used to.. extend.. the duration of any polymorph effect to 2 hours/level with the added benefits of becoming a construct but with the drawback of having 3 strength.
It will only extend the duration of the skinsend spell. It will not extend any other spells (unless you cast then as extended spells). Let's say you are polymorphed 1hr/level (CL 20) and you have 5 rounds left. You can't just cast extended skinsend and suddenly bump extend polymorph's duration to be be 2 hrs/level, or even only adding the extra 20 hours to it, or even doubling the remaining 5 rounds to 10. It doesn't work that way....
Sorry but this all seem like your personal interpretation and not at all RAW like i requested.
What is a linked spell in pathfinder?
Where does it say that the polymorph effect ends on the skinsend?
Or where does it say it gets transferred.
Not all constructs are built with the Craft Construct feat. Spells like animate objects allow a caster to temporarily animate an existing object. These constructs are in many ways weaker than manufactured constructs, as they are susceptible to dispelling and antimagic.A caster can use the animate objects spell to instantly create a temporary construct. A permanency spell cast upon an animated object makes the construct permanent; however, it can still be dispelled or suppressed by
antimagic. Craft Construct creates permanent animated objects not susceptible to dispelling and antimagic. The CR of a potential animated object depends on its size and abilities, as explained in the animated object entry on page 14 of the Bestiary
This quote about animated object confirms that i'm right since its a specific rule for the spell animate object and not for any other construct created by a spell.
Read through the wall of text and slowly forgot the initial question....
Anyway, the skin is not self-supporting, so the antimagic field still have effect on it. There is a difference between construct created temporarily (eg: animate object) and construct that is permanently (eg: create construct feat). The skin still relying on something, such as if you regenarate new skin, then it dead, or more obviously is the spell duration.
Why did you comment then? Should i advise you to look for a medic regarding your memory problems?
Also if you read carefully you will see that Antimagic Field sais that constructs ARE self supporfing, not that only self supporting constructs can enter the field.
I'm looking for RAW ruling for the spell Skinsend and it's interaction with polymorph spells.
The spell creates a duplicate of yourself by tearing away your skin and having it animated as a construct for 1 hour/level.
The question is, what happens to your skin by RAW if you were under a transmutation effect like a Wild Shape or a polymorph?
There's a couple of points i would like to discuss.
1) The spell states: "You cause your own skin to peel off your body and animate as a magical creature you control."
This in my eyes has a couple of implications, first is that you retain any shape you had on yourself, for example a Dragon Form III.
Second is that the new creature created while having the skin of a dragon doesn't have any magical effects lingering from the dragon form spell and it retains it for it's whole duration and the the duration of the Dragon Form.
I've searched anywhere if a rule was present that could apply to such an odd case.
The only thing i was able to find were quotes from other spells that seem to confirm my idea of this combo working.
One is Enlarge Person that states: "Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size."
Wich in existing by itself confirms that there is no general rule to be applied because if it existed there would be no need for a specification in enlarge person.
Wich truly seems to be the case since i've seen plently of threads talking about a dismembered polymorphed creature and what would happen in that case.
In addition spells like Bilocation or Akashic Form specifically state what happens to the magical effects on you, saying that they get carried over if still in effect while it doesn't for skinsend.
By a raw standpoint i believe this means that they stay on your base body only but at the same time since the construct created with Skinsend has to have the shape of your skin to have the spell do what it sais it does the skin also has to retain the shape of a dragon.
2) Then the spell follows up with:
"Your possessed skin is identical to you in all ways, except the following: It has only half the number of hit points you had at the time you cast the spell, and cannot be healed above this maximum; construct type, traits, and immunities; Str 3, Con —; DR 10/piercing or slashing; and compression (as the universal monster ability). Your skin can take any actions you could normally take in your own body (such as to fight or cast spells)."
The newly created construct is IDENTICAL to YOU, the same you that gains the benefits from Form of the Dragon.
You become a Medium chromatic or metallic dragon. You gain a +4 size bonus to Strength, a +2 size bonus to Constitution, a +4 natural armor bonus, fly 60 feet (poor), darkvision 60 fee etc.
If my reasoning is all correct, by a RAW standpoint, an Extended Skinsend could be used to.. extend.. the duration of any polymorph effect to 2 hours/level with the added benefits of becoming a construct but with the drawback of having 3 strength.
I specified multiple times that i would like a RAW ruling on the interaction because obviously the spell seems a little light on words compared to It's similar counterparts and because it is obviously an unintended side effect the guy that wrote it didnt think about.
Having the approval of the GM is not an issue, i'm trying to see if there's potential for a gimmick that could be used by both players and Gms.
If i had to play something like this i would first like to know if it works RAW at least to then show it to my GM, see if there'sany problem and then chosing with him how to fix them.
Now, if the interaction works as i said i would like to know how spells like Trueseeing or Cat's grace, etc. Would work when used with skinsend.
Or what if something like Ice body or Iron body that seem to imply you dont have skin anymore.
Or with Fluid Form that turns your skin into a slimy substance.
What do you think? Should they all simply be carried over into the new body? With the duration extended to that of skinsend, having all of the magical effects active while being also undispellable?
Interestingly Skinsend seem to even work inside an Antimagic Field by the spell's descriotion: "The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting."
Meaning that there could be some even more unintended but interesting implications.
Many thanks to all of those taking the time to read this wall of text and replying.
each spell has a finite duration so there will be no permanent effect created by either spell. It is just illogical to assume a created duplicate will stick around. So Bilocation creating a Permanent body is clearly False.
PizzaLord did a decent job trying to explain the mess (but the halving of duration should only occur while Bilocation is in effect). So no this won't work as described, it is simply wrong. Just read the spells and do what they say.
I will say that it can get a bit tricky with spell effects as some target the caster's body/physical ability scores and some (like some curses or negative levels) stick with the caster's soul/spirit/psyche/mental ability scores. You see this effect with Raise Dead and some other spells. The assumption is the caster's current body("you") unless the spell implies otherwise.
If you want to vet some scheme you should try the Advice forum first as they have more leeway and can advise you on how to do it or provide guidance.
Could you answer to the qestions i asked you please?
To answer the points you brought now, the fact that both spells have limited duration is nonsensical, you just have to read the effect of bilocation.
Also PizzaLord did an awful job explaining how the whole ordeal works because he shifted the control of the spell to the troll while in the text of the spell itself it is specified that it is you under the control of both bodies, with your consciousness as the target for the spell.
And while it is true that the rule for compulsion effects doesnt apply here it it also true that the specific effect of the spell tramples any generic rule there might have been.
You exist in two places at once, not the troll.
Just to quote a random part: " You perceive sensory information from your body and that of your duplicate simultaneously."
This "you" it refers to has to be the mind/soul of the caster or else the spell would make no sense. (they're a little interchangeable in oathfidner at times)
You cannot duplicate the soul of a being, what the heck are you?! A God?!
Greetings people, just noticed a combination that would be useful for my character and i need to have it checked in case i missed something.
...
If I understand you correctly:
Ezren the Wizard casts Greater Possession on an Adult Red Dragon. The dragon fails his Will save. Ezren enters the dragon’s body and his own physical body vanishes.
(Normally, Ezren would be ejected to the closest empty square upon expiration of the spell, 17 hours later (or upon the dragon's death).)
Ezren then casts Bilocation, creating an identical copy of the Adult Red Dragon he is possessing, along with everything the Adult Red Dragon is wearing and carrying at the time of casting*. This halves the remaining duration of the Greater Possession spell.
When Bilocation ends, Ezren decides whether the Adult Red Dragon he is possessing or the duplicate Adult Red Dragon he created with Bilocation disappears. If the Adult Red Dragon he is possessing disappears, Ezren becomes the duplicate Adult Red Dragon. If Ezren is carrying artifacts** while possessing the Adult Red Dragon when he does this, they transfer with his consciousness when he becomes the duplicate.
So what you really want to know is whether Bilocation, a 9th level spell with a duration of 1 round/level can serve as a backdoor to a permanent version of Shapechange, normally a 9th level spell with a duration of 10 min./level, AND as a means to instantly kill a possessed creature with no (additional) saving throw allowed.
If you're asking whether all this is allowed under RAW, you are correct. If you're asking whether this is what was intended by the spell in question (specifically, Bilocation), I feel very confident in saying "absolutely not." Whether or not your idea should be allowed is a decision for your GM. I'm confident there are GMs out there who might see this as outside-the-box thinking that deserves to work. I'm equally confident that there are GMs out there who will tolerate it or dismiss it out of hand,...
I'll say it here once, for all of those commenting about the overpoweredness of te combo.
I agree, the combo is overpowered, expecially for the price required.
And while it is true that you should always ask your GM if he allows for a similar combo it is also true that you can first see if the combo works at all and then propose the concept to him, rebalancing it accordingly.
But im that kind of guy that doesn't like homebrews and if something can be done already within the boundaries of the rules i prefer to use the printed materials and find out some wonky combo, at times with weird restrictions or interactions to pull it off.
In a sense it makes me feel like the sorcerer itself researching its unique ritual.
Now, in response to Phoebus, that's almost what i ment.
My idea was to also turn off possession, retaining your human body and the dragon copy and then turning off Bilocation.
I never ment to use it for an instant kill, that would honestly be an unliked side effect.
From a Rules perspective the spells do not work the way you intend or operate with the control you assume or your wording isn't exact enough. The proof will come In Game, it is a learning experience.
(aka I've done this and you're going about it the wrong way)
My suggestion is to play/GM a high level magic game and get some experience with the spell system and how to take advantage of the various foibles/features.
Mind elaborating a little?
From a rules perspective the combo seems to work even if unintended.
Also it really seems to work in the way i described it, could you explain how you believe the interaction work?
Also what about my wording? It is there just to explain the interaction, its the spells thenselves that do the rest lol.
I dont know what kind of proof you might get of these combo not working if you play the game without these combos, and im not even sure what is there to learn about the game.
You say you did this kind of things before but that im doing it the wrong way, what is the right one then?
4. If you dismiss possession you will return to your original body. The troll will be left bilocated. Its bodies, will be under its control, since its soul is in both (as part of the bilocation spell.
I dont really understand this part, how is the control shifted from you to the troll?
The spell bilocates YOUR consciousness, not the troll's.
In the same way a compulsion effect was on me would follow my soul, a compultion effect cast on the troll would follow his soul and any effect on the body will stay on that body.
In my mind saying that the troll magically obtains control of both bodies is like saying that if i possess someone and then polymorph into a dragon i still retain the dragon form once i go back to my original body, makes no sesen.
I don't think the magic effect will transfer when you end the possession, like if you cast mirror image to yourself, then the effect is on the dragon body, so when the possession ends, it remains on the dragon body, not your original body. Otherwise it will means that if someone cast debuff on the dragon, then you will take away its debuff when possession end. Thus, i think the Bilocation will be controlled by the dragon if you end the possession.
Though this is just my opinion, not sure is there any RAW for it.
In the possession rules page it's stated:
. If the possessing creature is the only mind or soul in the host body, the compulsion or charm effect works on the possessing creature normally. If the possessing creature is later evicted from the body, the compulsion or charm effect remains active on the possessing creature when it returns to its original body. For instance, if a mesmerist is using mind swap on a bard, and a succubus uses her dominate monster spell-like ability when she meets the possessed bard, the mesmerist must attempt a saving throw against the spell. If he fails, the mesmerist becomes dominated by the succubus, and when his possession ends and he returns to his body, he remains at the mercy of his new mistress.
When both the host creature and a possessing creature occupy a body at the same time, a charm or compulsion effect can target either one. However, the caster must be aware of the possessing creature’s presence in the host body in order to target it. Otherwise, the effect targets the host by default, generally with limited effect.
Here it specifically talks about compulsion and charm effects but i think a similar reasoning should apply.
Bilocation gives you two bodies you control with a single consciousness, and i think the effect ahould follow the soul and not the body.
Conversely a polymorph effect that specifically targets the body should stay with the body.
But to be honest i was sure the rules were more clear about what kind of effects stayed with the body and whose followed the soul.
Greetings people, just noticed a combination that would be useful for my character and i need to have it checked in case i missed something.
The idea is to take a monster's body permanently without killing or .ind controlling them, here's the idea.
The PC casts possession on a monster, the usual dragon for this example.
Then casts Bilocation while inside of the dragon, creating a clone of the dragon.
Possession then gets turned off returning yourself to your body while maintaining the bilocated dragon.
Then we turn off Bilocation, chosing the dragon's body as the one to return.
Ideally this should lead to a permanent new body for the character.
Obviously this is not intended by the design of those spells, im interested in knowing if the combination could work RAW.
I believe bilocation creates a copy of your current body.
A reincarnated character wouldn't make a copy of his original body.
If you used Mind Swap, Major on a troll while having the racial heritage feat you would create a copy of the troll, not your original body.
Even sillier would be acharacter using Skinsend that has very similar woring to Bilocation, obviously he would skin his
current body, not his original one.
Hello everyone, i've registered just to ask this question that is troubling me a lot lately.
In my current campaign i'm playing a Death Knight, [Antipaladin variant from Genius Games] and all his class features have a level cap like:
"Deathly Boon" At 5th level, this spirit grants the weapon a +1 enhancement bonus. For every three levels beyond 5th, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +6 at 20th level.
The mythic version [from the Mythic Heroes handbook] states: Mythic Weapon Divine Bond: The death knight infuses his
connection to deathly powers with his mythic energies. He adds
his mythic tier to his death knight level when determining the
effectiveness and duration of his weapon bond.
So does the mythic version increase the cap of the ability up to 30? Or it's still capped at level 20 making the mythic version crap?
The same thing can be applied with many others abilities that have the same wording and i couldn't find anything about this.
