During combat, can a Kineticist using Extended Kinesis proliferate earth in a square to make a wall/impassable terrain?
If so, does a Kineticist need to first generate earth through Base Kinesis, or could the Kineticist simply proliferate earth from existing material such as rock or dirt ground?
Thank you
Assuming you had a square with earth in it, it seems like you could use proliferate to make it fill the square.
This is an interesting idea, but I'm not sure I'm reading it correctly.
More interesting to me is that with igneogenesis you could create a whole structure out of earth and stone. And that's pretty cool. I would definitely building houses in the ground with such powers.
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Extended kinesis- Proliferate needs a pass on how it's written, because it may, or may not, as written, be affected by the kinesis bulk limits.
As an easy example, people will say that Proliferate makes no mention of bulk limit, but the counterargument to that, is Generate also doesn't reference bulk limits.
markrivett wrote: During combat, can a Kineticist using Extended Kinesis proliferate earth in a square to make a wall/impassable terrain?
The big restriction that the GM is going to use to tell you that you can't is in Base Kinesis. Which Extended Kinesis is still affected by.
Base Kinesis wrote: Base Kinesis can't deal damage or cause conditions unless otherwise noted. Difficult terrain, impassible terrain, and cover are all conditions. Either conditions for a creature or conditions of the terrain.
I don't think that an automatically given and perpetually available 1st level ability should be duplicating the effects of a 5th Rank spell.
Finoan wrote: markrivett wrote: During combat, can a Kineticist using Extended Kinesis proliferate earth in a square to make a wall/impassable terrain?
The big restriction that the GM is going to use to tell you that you can't is in Base Kinesis. Which Extended Kinesis is still affected by.
Base Kinesis wrote: Base Kinesis can't deal damage or cause conditions unless otherwise noted. Difficult terrain, impassible terrain, and cover are all conditions. Either conditions for a creature or conditions of the terrain.
I don't think that an automatically given and perpetually available 1st level ability should be duplicating the effects of a 5th Rank spell. I don't disagree with this interpretation. I've read and re-read these abilities like 10 times and I'm still not clear.
Base Kinesis does clearly state that it can't deal damage or cause conditions... but then it goes on to say that fire can cast light and ignite flammable substances.
Doesn't casting light implicitly remove a concealed or hidden condition from things and add the observed condition to something that was in the dark?
Doesn't igniting a flammable object imply that the thing on fire - say a spider web or puddle of oil - is taking/inflicting damage?
Similarly, if I Extended Kinesis -> proliferate fire to fill a square, doesn't that square, at the very least, become hazardous terrain?
I'm not arguing with you. I'm just struggling with what appears to be contradictory wording mixed with some real-wold implications.
The problem is that I am not fully able to interpret the rule either.
Ultimately I somewhat agree with shroudb - if we are going to have this be well-defined, then it needs an errata pass.
As it is now, it is left up to GM interpretation on what exactly is and is not possible.
For example, to continue the argument that shroudb presented:
shroudb wrote: Proliferate makes no mention of bulk limit, but the counterargument to that, is Generate also doesn't reference bulk limits. Generate doesn't list a bulk limit in its own bullet point, but Base Kinesis does have a bulk limit on its targets. Light bulk initially, and increasing with level. The item created by Generate could be ruled to be held to that limit as well since the created object is itself the target of the effect.
And while Extended Kinesis and Proliferate doesn't mention a bulk limit, it does still follow the targeting rules for Base Kinesis, so you couldn't target an entire wall (that would be larger than the bulk limit even at 20th level) to Proliferate into a second wall. Proliferate also has the size limit - the newly created or extended object has to fit inside its square or a single adjacent square.
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So these feel more like guidelines for making rulings with rather than solid rules that we are ever going to fully agree on.
Finoan wrote: markrivett wrote: During combat, can a Kineticist using Extended Kinesis proliferate earth in a square to make a wall/impassable terrain?
The big restriction that the GM is going to use to tell you that you can't is in Base Kinesis. Which Extended Kinesis is still affected by.
Base Kinesis wrote: Base Kinesis can't deal damage or cause conditions unless otherwise noted. Difficult terrain, impassible terrain, and cover are all conditions. Either conditions for a creature or conditions of the terrain.
I don't think that an automatically given and perpetually available 1st level ability should be duplicating the effects of a 5th Rank spell. Difficult terrain, cover and etc are not conditions. Conditions is a specific term, and neither of those are in that list.
Main limiting factor, if it applies, is the bulk limit. The only thing is that it's not very clear if this applis to the Proliferate or not.
Because a big fire isn't really bulky, but a big boulder sure is.
shroudb wrote: Difficult terrain, cover and etc are not conditions. Conditions is a specific term, and neither of those are in that list.
Main limiting factor, if it applies, is the bulk limit. The only thing is that it's not very clear if this applis to the Proliferate or not.
Because a big fire isn't really bulky, but a big boulder sure is.
Actually this would make things very uneven. Because fire doesn't really have any mass, and while bulk isn't strictly mass I can't fathom anything where a item without weight has anything other than negligible bulk. But rocks and metal are dense items. They should have higher bulk than items of similar size, and so should have higher bulk.
Does that mean fire benders should be able to base kinesis to create huge conflagrations while earth benders can only manage to create comparatively tiny things.
There probably should have been a volume limit, and not a limit based on bulk. And I suppose prior to being able to do a whole 5ft cube they should have said that you can something with a volume roughly equal to *insert examples*.
Claxon wrote: shroudb wrote: Difficult terrain, cover and etc are not conditions. Conditions is a specific term, and neither of those are in that list.
Main limiting factor, if it applies, is the bulk limit. The only thing is that it's not very clear if this applis to the Proliferate or not.
Because a big fire isn't really bulky, but a big boulder sure is.
Actually this would make things very uneven. Because fire doesn't really have any mass, and while bulk isn't strictly mass I can't fathom anything where a item without weight has anything other than negligible bulk. But rocks and metal are dense items. They should have higher bulk than items of similar size, and so should have higher bulk.
Does that mean fire benders should be able to base kinesis to create huge conflagrations while earth benders can only manage to create comparatively tiny things.
There probably should have been a volume limit, and not a limit based on bulk. And I suppose prior to being able to do a whole 5ft cube they should have said that you can something with a volume roughly equal to *insert examples*. The size is still limited to a 5ft cube regardless the bulk.
The problem here is that the examples given (bigger flame, small tree) wouldn't have an issue with the bulk allowed on later levels of base kinesis (thinking here 1-2bulk) but it would be an issue even with a smaller boulder.
That also keeps in mind that not all elements are equal for this feat to begin with(there are even options completely barred from some elements)
Proliferate's example of "a small tree" is probably greater than the Base Kinesis bulk limit of any kineticist, so my read is that the bulk limit doesn't apply to Proliferate. Whether the "expanded to fill its square" material is suitable to use as permanent fortification or building material without working with tools is another matter up to the GM. I would take my cue from Sculpt and rule it is not, but could be used as cover or area denial in a fight
Claxon wrote: Does that mean fire benders should be able to base kinesis to create huge conflagrations while earth benders can only manage to create comparatively tiny things. I think we should notice this: 'After you proliferate an element, it reacts to the environment naturally'. What does fire naturally do when there's nothing to burn? It goes out. So no conflagrations, burning soil or stone, no hazardous terrain, no even tiny bonfire in the next round after Base Kinesis. (You need Living Bonfire for that) Unless fire kineticist does this every round: so a limited (because it's 2 actions) exploration activity is possible to keep up a 5ft fire.
It only concerns the case when there's nothing to burn, again.
Baarogue wrote: Proliferate's example of "a small tree" is probably greater than the Base Kinesis bulk limit of any kineticist, so my read is that the bulk limit doesn't apply to Proliferate. Whether the "expanded to fill its square" material is suitable to use as permanent fortification or building material without working with tools is another matter up to the GM. I would take my cue from Sculpt and rule it is not, but could be used as cover or area denial in a fight Is it though?
Is a sapling bulkier than a ten foot pole?
Cause you can affect that at level 5 with base Kinesis..
shroudb wrote: Baarogue wrote: Proliferate's example of "a small tree" is probably greater than the Base Kinesis bulk limit of any kineticist, so my read is that the bulk limit doesn't apply to Proliferate. Whether the "expanded to fill its square" material is suitable to use as permanent fortification or building material without working with tools is another matter up to the GM. I would take my cue from Sculpt and rule it is not, but could be used as cover or area denial in a fight Is it though?
Is a sapling bulkier than a ten foot pole?
Cause you can affect that at level 5 with base Kinesis.. Well the 10' pole is a worked object that's only an inch or so in diameter and completely smooth, while a sapling presumably has branches and leaves, albeit not many of them since it'd be restricted to being 5' tall. Maybe the sapling would fit w/i the base kinesis bulk limit after all but only at higher levels. I would not say it's as low as 1 bulk though
Baarogue wrote: shroudb wrote: Baarogue wrote: Proliferate's example of "a small tree" is probably greater than the Base Kinesis bulk limit of any kineticist, so my read is that the bulk limit doesn't apply to Proliferate. Whether the "expanded to fill its square" material is suitable to use as permanent fortification or building material without working with tools is another matter up to the GM. I would take my cue from Sculpt and rule it is not, but could be used as cover or area denial in a fight Is it though?
Is a sapling bulkier than a ten foot pole?
Cause you can affect that at level 5 with base Kinesis.. Well the 10' pole is a worked object that's only an inch or so in diameter and completely smooth, while a sapling presumably has branches and leaves, albeit not many of them since it'd be restricted to being 5' tall. Maybe the sapling would fit w/i the base kinesis bulk limit after all but only at higher levels. I would not say it's as low as 1 bulk though Yeah 1 I'd also say is pretty low, but I think 2-3 bulk is more than fair, and that's certainly within the purview of base kinesis.
The other problematic word is that you cannot recreate "durable" goods.
What is a durable goods? A wall certainly is "crafted durable goods", and a fire and a sapling, isn't. But how about a plain boulder?
Is it limited due to durable, or not limited due to not being crafted?
Is the impulse limited to making soil for earth?
That's why I said that this part needs to be errataed to be clearer what you can and can't do.
Given that Igneokinesis is level 4 and the only thing it does is create a single block of temporary earth at that level, I don't think that the purpose of Extend is to do so, at level 2, as simply one of its multiple functions.
On the other hand, I wouldn't want my player to be feeling cheated out of his powers.
So the only thing I can say is that it's a feat that would need a clear discussion between player and gm, to avoid misunderstandings and bad feelings.
Because RAW is inconclusive.
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