I was just wondering how powerful this could potentially be on a negotiator bard as call truce does quote...
"Once you’ve called for a truce, if any of your allies attack or take any threatening action against those you are entreating before the start of your next turn, your call is unsuccessful.
At the start of your next turn, attempt a single Diplomacy check (DC = 30 + the Charisma modifier of the creature with the highest Charisma modifier in the opposing group). If you are successful, combat ceases for 1 minute, or until any creature in the opposing group is threatened or attacked."
Now 30+the leaders charisma modifier is a high bar to hit. But the negotiator has the master of rhetoric you can take 20 once per day. This means once per day you can in theory just...stop a fight.
Now on paper this sounds absolutely ridiculous, but i wonder how often you could do this in practice?
At first glance, it doesn't sound too problematic to me: once a day, a specialist character can stop a fight against intelligent foes for one minute. It could actually create some interesting role-playing and story opportunities.
If the party started to abuse it (in the sense of calling for truces but actually just buying time for buffs, better positioning, surprise attacks, or escapes) I might gradually introduce circumstance penalties to the check as word gets around that the party's call for truces can't be trusted.
Taking 20 wont work, it takes 20x as long to complete a task when taking 20.
Name Violation wrote: Taking 20 wont work, it takes 20x as long to complete a task when taking 20.
Not with the Master of Rhetoric feature: Source
Champions of Balance pg. 18
Bards are experts at manipulating the emotions and perceptions of others. Negotiators are those bards who take the skills of a performer and apply them to the realms of business and law.
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Master of Rhetoric (Ex): At 5th level, the negotiator can take 10 on any Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (local), or Sense Motive check if he has ranks in that skill. A negotiator can choose not to take 10 and can instead roll normally. In addition, the negotiator can take 20 on one of those skill checks (without spending any additional time). The negotiator can do this once per day at 5th level, twice per day at 11th level, and three times per day at 17th level. This ability replaces lore master.
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Masalic wrote: I was just wondering how powerful this could potentially be on a negotiator bard as call truce does quote...
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Now on paper this sounds absolutely ridiculous, but i wonder how often you could do this in practice?
It depends on the GM and the campaign. It's going to be way more powerful in the hands of a negotiator bard than almost anyone else, as you point out. Diplomacy is the main focus of such characters and they get abilities that are practically unheard of to any other class, like Taking 20 one or more times a day when threatened and at no cost.
How often could such a person do this? As much as they want in a normal situation. There's always going to be a group or situation where some reason exists that it won't, and a player will have to accept that, even without knowing the reason. They may not know the opposition has a short-term buff spell on or they're mind-controlled.
Also, they get checks if anyone in your group even plans to get a combat advantage, which could be healing up or buffing. Naturally it comes down to reasonable. I think it would be reasonable to see someone healing a fallen or unconscious person (but they'd also be reasonably and logically removing injured from the field during a truce, not just healing them back to take up a battle position), but it's another thing when you see your barbarian or still standing warriors getting magically restored. So there's lots of things that you can't do, including moving to where you could flank or threaten someone or remove an advantage they have, even in terms of positioning. This can even include an ally leaving sight, for instance just moving down a passage off to the side that the opposition knows could lead around to their flank (they still have to make a Sense Motive check, unless it's an obvious threat, but still they get one).
They have no such restrictions. If you call the truce, they can move to surround you, they can buff, and heal, or send one or two runners to their allies or to get reinforcements or just to alert them of the encounter. Not saying that the representatives won't hear you out, just that they can reload, reposition, or use it to their advantage without issue.
The issue always comes down to how the GM rules on it or how permissive they are. Some people will substitute a DC for logical interaction and, even a high DC like this, can ultimately become a non-issue if a player really wants (as you've pointed out). Fortunately, the writers made a good effort in stating that factors do exist and that it isn't intended to be used aggressively, at least not overtly. And word does get around if your party is abusing the call for truce.
Having said that, if that's the character, and the other players understand that, or at least know it won't always work (and not because they're sabotaging it by trying to gain advantage), it's fine. And if the GM (or the module they're running) has some wiggle room to account for it happening... go for it. Most GMs will expect this of a player if the character is in their campaign and has been working on their levels and such.
It's probably not best to just spring such a character into a module or adventure where the other players are expecting action or fight scenes against giants or pirates or Runelords or something and then you show up and they either have to just hold their actions while you talk your way through all the scenes (cause you're probably the most charismatic one) or purposefully ruin it by taking actions their characters would legitimately do, like... keep attacking while you're standing in the open and waving your hands during a battle.
Pizza Lord wrote: Masalic wrote: I was just wondering how powerful this could potentially be on a negotiator bard as call truce does quote...
...
Now on paper this sounds absolutely ridiculous, but i wonder how often you could do this in practice?
It depends on the GM and the campaign. It's going to be way more powerful in the hands of a negotiator bard than almost anyone else, as you point out. Diplomacy is the main focus of such characters and they get abilities that are practically unheard of to any other class, like Taking 20 one or more times a day when threatened and at no cost.
How often could such a person do this? As much as they want in a normal situation. There's always going to be a group or situation where some reason exists that it won't, and a player will have to accept that, even without knowing the reason. They may not know the opposition has a short-term buff spell on or they're mind-controlled.
Also, they get checks if anyone in your group even plans to get a combat advantage, which could be healing up or buffing. Naturally it comes down to reasonable. I think it would be reasonable to see someone healing a fallen or unconscious person (but they'd also be reasonably and logically removing injured from the field during a truce, not just healing them back to take up a battle position), but it's another thing when you see your barbarian or still standing warriors getting magically restored. So there's lots of things that you can't do, including moving to where you could flank or threaten someone or remove an advantage they have, even in terms of positioning. This can even include an ally leaving sight, for instance just moving down a passage off to the side that the opposition knows could lead around to their flank (they still have to make a Sense Motive check, unless it's an obvious threat, but still they get one).
They have no such restrictions. If you call the truce, they can move to surround you, they can buff, and heal, or send one or two runners to their allies or to get... So, it's in this weird limbo where it's both powerful and situational at the same time.
Masalic wrote: So, it's in this weird limbo where it's both powerful and situational at the same time. Yep. Like how well illusions will work or a nuclear bomb or Power Word: Kill. Just like magic missile can fire multiple bolts that can be spread to multiple targets and never misses, but does nothing to objects.
Or a disintegrate spell when you're trying to pass through a bunch of poisonous vines or trees; a great spell with a touch attack, massive damage, dusts opponents leaving their gear, can just poof cubic feet of non-living matter, and can bring down force effects... doesn't do a thing to a tree (unless it's dead). Granted... that specific example will have a lot more situations where it's useful than not, but that's just an example of when something could be less or even ineffective than it could be, just depending on the situation you find yourself in.
I guess a better example would be sneak attack in an adventure that has a lot (not all) of creatures not subject to it.
I was also just considering this build and would like to chime in. Everyone above mentioned different actions and perceptions as far as breaking the truce and I wholeheartedly agree.
As an additional argument for "Not Broken" I would also like to point out that besides limited uses of Master of Rhetoric, Call truce just stops the fight for a minute, if you are not trying to sneakily gain battlefield advantage, then you are probably going to be trying to negotiate an end to the fight and rolling another check without your auto 20 (at least until lvl 10).
I usually gm and play at slightly larger tables with around 6 players, very often there will be combat happening in two different locations, in which case call truce also has the impediment of not being able to happen as combat rages in the next room.
I am hoping the build is fine, but as for table enjoyment it is about mutual player respect for what people want to play and sharing the spotlight. A swarm appears its a blasty spell job, an evil being appears its the paladins call, etc. If intelligent enemies appear who can be bargained with or persuaded and you are up. All the players at the table need to share the spotlight. If there are a lot of negotiable enemies, do not try to talk your way through every encounter, the party will get bored. Even if you get absurd bonus to diplomacy, don't use it on the final big baddie to make him back down, its anti climatic. (nothing wrong with dropping some non lethal damage and then asking him to surrender after your party has walloped him and his lieutenants, unless there is a pc sworn to kill him or something).
PS: I think the DCs for diplomacy are wonky because they are too set. Could be facing down a level 20 fighter who has -2 Cha mod and he is easier to talk around then the level one sorcerer? I much prefer the Intimidate dcs which include the oppositions hit die. I am looking at optimized choices and am seeing at level 5(20 base Cha) around a +30, plus roll twice and take higher and can shift 3 categories. Which means by level 5 you have two d20 chances to roll over their charisma mod for call truce. Then use your auto twenty to shift their attitude towards you. Usually looking at a minimum of indifferent, at which point you can start asking favors (like leave me and my friends alone), though to do it all in a minute you might need to find something that lets you adjust attitude in half the time, saw it somewhere, don't remember where or if it would drop a trait bonus from 2(bless sarenrae) to 1.
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