Manufactured reach weapon and natural bite attack

[Conacer]

So here is the question, Im making a tieflimg sorc for dragon disciple prestige class. Using a longspear with maw or claw alternate racial trait. When wielding a longspear i would still threaten adjacent squares due to the bite attack. At what point does the bite attack become primary. If i make no attacks with the longspear in a round would my bite attacks be primary or does the act of having the longspear and threatening reach attacks of oppertunity keep my bite as secondary?

[Azothath]

Natural Attacks (Std Actn) on AoN

you are combining the attacks and generally they are separate attacks.
> The longspear with reach threatens squares at 10ft but not 5ft(adjacent) or your square.
> The natural attack threatens squares in your reach, for medium sized creatures that's normally your square and 5ft(adjacent).
> The type of natural attack usually sets it as Primary and then if you can do 1.5*Str or Secondary. The issue is when you use a (manufactured) weapon in the same round or attack sequence or in two-weapon fighting, then the natural attack is forced into a secondary attack.
It is the same with Iterative attacks (at BAB 5+). They are still separate attacks (with each natural weapon or other weapon) but natural attacks suffer when you also use a manufactured weapon (becoming secondary attacks).

ADVICE
I know people want to do combat and spells - but it only works at lower levels and then acts as some melee options at mid to higher level. Otherwise you're a mincemeat sorcerer as you don't have the BAB nor the HPs to do consistent front line melee action. It is more efficient and effective to focus on ranged or touch attack based combat.

[happykj]

Simply threatening will not make your bite attack become secondary

[Diego Rossi]

As Azothath said, unless the ability that gives you the natural attack says otherwise, it is a primary attack.
That changes if you make multiple attacks with the same action, i.e. you use a full attack action, while missing manufactured weapons and natural attacks. In that instance, and only in that instance, all the natural attacks become secondary.

Note that you can't make claw attacks while wielding a long spear, as you need two hands to use it.

If you get a way to make extra attacks that aren't part of the full attack (or equivalent) action, like a magus using spell combat and casting Bladed Dash, the extra attack is at full bonus regardless of it being a weapon or natural attack.
Same thing for attacks of opportunity.

[AwesomenessDog]

Azothath wrote:

ADVICE

I know people want to do combat and spells - but it only works at lower levels and then acts as some melee options at mid to higher level. Otherwise you're a mincemeat sorcerer as you don't have the BAB nor the HPs to do consistent front line melee action. It is more efficient and effective to focus on ranged or touch attack based combat.

Not to derail, as the main post has already been answered, but allow me to introduce you to abyssal sorcerer, or any other sorcerer that moderately invests in AC, other attack avoidance like Mirror Images, and casts transformation. Is it *as good* as the min-maxed fighter, or the battle cleric who didn't start out as far behind as you, no; but is it more than enough to get by with paizo's very easy difficulty level to be worth being able to be a fighter with 9th level casting progression, yes.

[Conacer]

Azothath wrote:

Natural Attacks (Std Actn) on AoN

you are combining the attacks and generally they are separate attacks.
> The longspear with reach threatens squares at 10ft but not 5ft(adjacent) or your square.
> The natural attack threatens squares in your reach, for medium sized creatures that's normally your square and 5ft(adjacent).
> The type of natural attack usually sets it as Primary and then if you can do 1.5*Str or Secondary. The issue is when you use a (manufactured) weapon in the same round or attack sequence or in two-weapon fighting, then the natural attack is forced into a secondary attack.
It is the same with Iterative attacks (at BAB 5+). They are still separate attacks (with each natural weapon or other weapon) but natural attacks suffer when you also use a manufactured weapon (becoming secondary attacks).

ADVICE
I know people want to do combat and spells - but it only works at lower levels and then acts as some melee options at mid to higher level. Otherwise you're a mincemeat sorcerer as you don't have the BAB nor the HPs to do consistent front line melee action. It is more efficient and effective to focus on ranged or touch attack based combat.

So yes but also consider this. Round 1, 4 enemies, two move in on me, two others go after pally but are more than 10ft from me. I get one attack of oppertunity with longspear. On my turn i cannot attack with longspear, but can with bite. Normally bite is primary (and since only natural attack str x 1.5. As i used my longspear to take an oppertunity attack is my bite primary or secondary?

2nd round of combat enemies attack but do not move. Again my only attacks in my round are with bite. Primary(?)

3rd round more enemies move in to me provoking another attack of oppertunity. Or since last round my bite was primary(?) Do i still get the attack. Do i still get to use the longspear to threaten reach squares(?)

Basically i am trying to reason out how using a reach weapon to get attacks of opportunity is not a workaround cheat for making my bite a secondary attack.

(Edit) As for the advice I am well aware that this char is less the ideal. This is not an ideal character but my attempt to make and put my own spin on Anomander Rake (malazan book of the fallen)

[Java Man]

The bite is only secondary if you use the spear and bite during a full attack. And at the end of your turn it stops being secondary.

[Heather 540]

Question: Are you attacking with both the bite and the spear on the same attack?

Answer: No, you are not. Therefore the bite attack is primary and gets the full bonus.

The spear is a reach weapon that can't attack the adjacent square and the bite can't attack two squares away. You are never going to be attacking with both the bite and the spear on the same turn.

Taking an AoO with the spear does not affect the bite attack you make on your turn. This is because the AoO is not taken on your turn.

And yes, as long as you are wielding the spear, you threaten with reach as usual and can take the AoO.

[Java Man]

It is very possible to attack with both the spear and bite in the same turn, either by attacking different foes or by taking a 5' step in between attacks.

[Heather 540]

Is taking a 5 foot step in between attacks allowed?

[DAOFS]

Yes, I can't find the quote at the moment but it definitely says somewhere "you can take a five-foot step before, in between, or after the attacks of a full attack action"

[Diego Rossi]

CRB, p. 181 wrote:

The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action.

CRB, p. 186 wrote:

The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.

If you have an older edition of the CRB maybe it is not there. I think it was errated after a FAQ.

[Azothath]

Full Attack action.

[vhok]

why would u go sorc into DD? bloodrager is far far better.

[Derklord]

Diego Rossi wrote:

If you have an older edition of the CRB maybe it is not there. I think it was errated after a FAQ.

It has been there since at least the 2nd printing (for the love of god I can't find a 1st printing PDF).

Interestingly enough, based on how the answer to the only FAQ that I can find on the topic is worded, about using using a 5-feet step during Cleave, even that seems to be allowed, it just doesn't let you fulfill the conditions to trigger the feat.

[Java Man]

vhok wrote:

why would u go sorc into DD? bloodrager is far far better.

Because you'd like to cast teleport someday? Or any other spell over 4th level?

[Derklord]

Let's be real, you don't go for a prestige class because you're looking for a stronger character, you do it for flavor. Barring very select exceptions, prestige classes make your character weaker.

vhok wrote:

why would u go sorc into DD? bloodrager is far far better.

I absolutely disagree with this statement. In Pathfinder, there is never a universally best, it always depends on what you want, and on the group and campaign. You cannot truthfully claim that BR->DD makes for a universally better character than Sorc->DD. You could say that the former is better in some regards. It may make for a character that plays more smoothly through the levels, or for a better attack-centric character, or for a character that makes better use of the DD class features. But there are many concepts where it's the worse option, and to boot, if you look at objective power level, higher tier casting virtually always wins out.