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The constant reductio ad absurdum from both sides in this thread brings a tear to mine eye.
But the fire aura does not provide light at all. Not even dim light.This is so fundamentally at odds with what fire is that I'm surprised the comment didn't come from The Contrarian.
The thought had crossed my mind, but with the way this thread is going, I feared people might take me seriously.
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So I guess the question I have is: in a situation where the party is facing an enemy kineticist, as a GM in what contexts would you allow the enemy having their kinetic aura active to give a hint to the party in which areas to Seek?
This is easy for me.
Same rules apply.
I do not change my adjudication based on whether the character is a PC or a NPC.
And for NPCs/monsters, I refer their stat block.
If it explicitly states there is a mechanical impact, then there is one. If not, then there is none.
If a player actually convinces me there should be an impact based on the NPC's description, I will enforce the same impact in the future for both PCs and NPCs.
And if I refuse to give an unstated mechanical advantage to a Kineticist with an active aura (like my fire aura sheds light, my water aura makes it difficult to light things on fire, my earth aura provides me with concealment ...), then I will not apply unstated mechanical disadvantages to them either.
It would just not be fair.
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The constant reductio ad absurdum from both sides in this thread brings a tear to mine eye.
The thought had crossed my mind, but with the way this thread is going, I feared people might take me seriously.But the fire aura does not provide light at all. Not even dim light.This is so fundamentally at odds with what fire is that I'm surprised the comment didn't come from The Contrarian.
The only way I know of that can sometimes work on the internet is to explicitly state that the post is not to be taken seriously.
And even that is not 100%.
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As far as the topic of the thread goes.
I've played with a Metal for a few levels, a Water/Air for 1-6 an Earth/Water/Fire for 6-9 and a mono Wood for 1-6.
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The class has flexibility, but constantly using the same seems to have some knock of negativity against player fun. One thing I would like to see more of are skill based maneuvers. It seems like Fighters & martials express more variety than Kins do, and it honestly might be the Kin being a midrange by default instead of melee. If they had more reason to get into melee range, it could lead to more variety of actions, even if some of that is just more movement instead of the plant a blast style.
I think one downside of the Kin is that their gameplay seems more stuck around "I've got these few hammers, I guess all my problems are nails" gameplan. Most of the time it's fine once they have a few different hammers for them to mix and match, but not always.
This is most notable with the most unbalanced impulse that everyone knew was a bad idea on paper.
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The Wood Kin's Timber Sentinel / Protector Tree.
3 PC party in SoT, currently L6. It's too good. They have rarely let the tree drop, and it's clear that they feel pressured to spam the Tree literally every turn due to how good it is. While the Kin themself rarely is targeted now that my Alch's the designated frontline (we're making it work), we are playing with the "tree's ally ∴ tree can block for Kin" interpretation.
I'm impressed with the Player's adaptability, as they got a mini tree guy companion to Command for 2:1 Actions due the them nearly being perma slowed 2 to keep the trees coming.
But IMO there's still no excuse for the designers to make an impulse that's literally a heightened max rank spell with 0 changes. And it's one of the best-scaling spells in the game. You think a +1d8 every R is good scaling? Try +10 HP.
Shield cantrip needs to burn the reaction, goes on 10min CD, and gets +5 to HP block every 2 spell Rs.
Protector Tree gets +10 HP per R, 4x the HP growth, and is completely automatic.
If you object to the comparison "but it's a cantrip!" YES. that is the whole point, Timber Sentinel is a non-overflow Kin cantrip. It's so good that it is 100% worth a Kin dip in a free archetype game. It is flexible spell with an extremely desirable function you get at max R, cast as a cantrip. Other Kin impulses have the +4 scaling, not the tree. Any time the Kin wants to use another impulse, there's a 3/4 chance it's being out-scaled in the awkward levels while Tree keeps growing.
None of the other Kins have had this issue that the wood PC has. I don't think there's anything else in the game like this design oversight of "max R spell as cantrip" with only a stance requirement.
For the sake of the fun of the class as a whole, I really think the Tree needs a nerf. If I were in charge of it, my current take would be to have the spell R to be -1 (or 2), and add overflow to enforce turn variety.
It could also be edited further as R-2 and solidify the "only blocks for non-caster" into direct text in exchange for giving the Kin a layer of temp HP bark. That would alter the design so that a Kin replanting a tree while their personal temp HP has been unused would be "wasteful," discouraging Tree spam, encouraging them to expose themself to danger and leave the Tree's shade.
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It really is shocking how differently the Kins have felt to play alongside, and even though the Wood has clearly been the "strongest" from a mechanical standpoint, they have also been having to work the hardest to have fun.
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Another note is just how much of a "combat equation nullifier" the tree is. Even when we fought VS an enemy spellcaster, just camping under the Tree, maybe shifting location a little between new Trees, has always been "the smart play." It is interesting how much that has altered what that SoT table considers to be better/worse compliments in the context of a party that has Tree, but I don't think it's "healthy" from a game design standpoint.
That's *fantastic* feedback, Trip.H!
I had planned on starting playing an Air/Wood Kin and the tree seemed like a great choice for a party with a Fighter and a Barb as frontliners.
Maybe it'll be too great of a choice.
We don't have a dedicated healer planned for this upcoming AP, so maybe my choice will be just right for our needs. Maybe it'll be too much. I had hoped to get a better sense of it before we start, but it seems like there's just too many hypotheticals to juggle.
I'm absolutely willing to adjust as we go if our GM feels like things are a little unbalanced.
EDIT:
The tree does only block *strike* actions - which I thought would be a big limiting factor since most enemies have specialized actions. Has that not been the case in your experience ?
There's just a shortage of magical / non-Strike harm against PCs in general. The "fantastical beasts" type foes have had a few, but it's thus far been literally always alongside Tree matching Strikes. Don't forget ranged projectiles are Strikes. How many humanoid foes have you seen throw cantrips at PCs over a crossbow/ect?
And as the tree lasts for 1 min, it does not actually matter how fast the Tree pops, only that you are spending 2 Actions to plant a 10HP p spell R buffer.
The Tree's large HP pool means that it has also blocked many, many Strike riding effects like poisons due to taking full blows. Even the Tree's immunity to such damage/effects really comes into play.
The Wood Kin is not my PC, so I'd be out of line to poke the GM about this detail. However, I think if GMs ran the Tree so that NPCs understood to burn down the Tree first, instead of swinging at protected PCs, it would at least help.
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From a mechanical standpoint, whomever *was blocked for* is getting the extra HP. As an Alch, most of my best support items have anti-synergy w/ Tree, like Numbing Tonic. But, Raise a Shield +2 AC means I get hit less, which means Tree lasts longer.
If foes bum-rushed Tree for it's low AC, it would not have quite as much of a crazy-strong effect. That said, the Tree is basically a 2nd row token, meaning it's not always feasible/without consequence to Strike it.
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I'd say not to worry about balance hurting fun *too* much, especially before the game has even been played. You can always adjust as you go btwn sessions.
If you're the type of Player that wants to quick-save quick-load every bit of harm that comes to you/your allied NPCs in a game, or can't resist the optimal play at the expense of your own fun, I would 100% work with the GM to significantly nerf your Tree over avoiding it or other alternatives.
If you can have fun playing sub optimally even when in a party game w/ death on the line, well, TBH I still might recommend nerfing it a little bit, but in general it's hard for OP options to damage table fun. Tree is dang close, but the vast majority of any fun-hurt is going to be limited to the Kin planing them.
So... I see the following:
- Air skill junction is available as of level 5. That's the one that gives explicit stealth benefits for having your aura up.
- Those explicit stealth benefits for having the aura up... are kind of default, in a weird sort of way? Like, the fact that Air is good at Stealth was consciously chosen, but it's possible that they weren't thinking too hard about the fact that that would imply that the aura being up would give a stealth bonus. It's even possible that the "skill junction means that having your aura up grants extra bonus" was something that was applied after the "air skill is stealth" part, and no one really looked at the interaction. RoE, much as I love it, has... a number of such issues.
- Clear as Air isn't available until level 6. Also, it's an overflow impulse that has to be sustained.
- Clear as Air does specify that the aura elements are concealed. It's explicitly part of the description, in an obviously rules sort of way. It's clearly intended to have some sort of meaningful rules impact.
So... I think this is the point where we just have to accept that RAW is a bit of a mess. RoE has a few of those. As such, it's now time for GM rulings. GM rulings really ought to run off of "What's actually good for your actual game?" rather than "What do the rules technically say, if you squint?" That one's going to depend on your players and your situation, and a lot of things.
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That's *fantastic* feedback, Trip.H!
I had planned on starting playing an Air/Wood Kin and the tree seemed like a great choice for a party with a Fighter and a Barb as frontliners.
Maybe it'll be too great of a choice.
We don't have a dedicated healer planned for this upcoming AP, so maybe my choice will be just right for our needs. Maybe it'll be too much. I had hoped to get a better sense of it before we start, but it seems like there's just too many hypotheticals to juggle.
I'm absolutely willing to adjust as we go if our GM feels like things are a little unbalanced.
EDIT:
The tree does only block *strike* actions - which I thought would be a big limiting factor since most enemies have specialized actions. Has that not been the case in your experience ?There's just a shortage of magical / non-Strike harm against PCs in general. The "fantastical beasts" type foes have had a few, but it's thus far been literally always alongside Tree matching Strikes. Don't forget ranged projectiles are Strikes. How many humanoid foes have you seen throw cantrips at PCs over a crossbow/ect?
And as the tree lasts for 1 min, it does not actually matter how fast the Tree pops, only that you are spending 2 Actions to plant a 10HP p spell R buffer.
The Tree's large HP pool means that it has also blocked many, many Strike riding effects like poisons due to taking full blows. Even the Tree's immunity to such damage/effects really comes into play.
The Wood Kin is not my PC, so I'd be out of line to poke the GM about this detail. However, I think if GMs ran the Tree so that NPCs understood to burn down the Tree first, instead of swinging at protected PCs, it would at least help.
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From a mechanical standpoint, whomever *was blocked for* is getting the extra HP. As an Alch, most of my best support items have anti-synergy w/ Tree, like Numbing Tonic. But, Raise a Shield +2 AC means I get hit less, which means Tree lasts longer.If foes...
My experience playing a Wood/x Kineticist in PFS and only at level 1 for the moment is that there are several ways to disrupt his game :
1. I consider that the Protector Tree does not protect my PC. So attacking the Kineticist is a good way to get his attention away from spamming the Tree. In a way, the Tree, under this reading of the RAW, encourages focus fire against the Kineticist who is not the most durable PC.
2. If the Tree is destroyed, it is very tempting for the Kineticist to spam it again on his turn. Which will take 2 actions that might actually be better spent doing something else.
3. The Tree only protects adjacent allies. Keeping the PCs moving around will lessen its impact.
4. Just saw that using the Tree is not a choice. It will take the damage from the very first Strike. Timing attacks well could help mitigating the Tree's impact as well.
A note on the Wood/Air. It is what I wanted to play at first, but the utility from Air at 1st level did not actually come into play, so I tried other combos before finally settling on Wood/Fire.
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1. I consider that the Protector Tree does not protect my PC. So attacking the Kineticist is a good way to get his attention away from spamming the Tree. In a way, the Tree, under this reading of the RAW, encourages focus fire against the Kineticist who is not the most durable PC.
Kineticist has Con primary, and Wood gets easy access to an autoscaling, easily refreshed shield. If you've got the impulse junction, you're also getting temp HP for yourself every time you drop that tree (or do some other wood thing), and wood has a couple of auras that are pretty good at making nearby enemies sad. Might not be the most durable PC, but you can definitely build a Wood Kineticist who can handle some pressure.
That said... doing so does require that much more investment. Having the tree as, effectively, a taunt effect, is an interesting idea.
Yes. I yet don't deal with a wood kineticist as GM but when a kineticist put a tree in the field and this tree is preventing damage at last my inteligent creatures would change their focus to the tree "caster" to solve the problem.
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1. I consider that the Protector Tree does not protect my PC. So attacking the Kineticist is a good way to get his attention away from spamming the Tree. In a way, the Tree, under this reading of the RAW, encourages focus fire against the Kineticist who is not the most durable PC.Kineticist has Con primary, and Wood gets easy access to an autoscaling, easily refreshed shield. If you've got the impulse junction, you're also getting temp HP for yourself every time you drop that tree (or do some other wood thing), and wood has a couple of auras that are pretty good at making nearby enemies sad. Might not be the most durable PC, but you can definitely build a Wood Kineticist who can handle some pressure.
That said... doing so does require that much more investment. Having the tree as, effectively, a taunt effect, is an interesting idea.
It requires investment and it forces specific tactics. If you're using a 2-action impulse and raising a shield, you're not doing anything else. I feel it is an interesting trade-off.
You don't really need Kinetic Pinnacle with Final Gate?
Final Gate allows you to activate your Kinetic Aura with a free action at the start of your turn using a Stance or Channel Elements.
Kinetic Pinnacle quickens you with the extra action to use a Stance or Blast.
So if you had Final Gate and Kinetic Pinnacle, you could activate the gate for free action, use 3 Action Overflow Impulse, then activate Kinetic Aura at the end of your round so your Kinetic Aura is never off unless you move or something.
If you activate the aura at the end of your turn, then Final Gate doesn't activate next round so it becomes sort of redundant unless you don't want the aura down between turns.
Might it not be better to take another level 18 Impulse? What do you think? Is Kinetic Pinnacle worth it or take another level 18 impulse?
IMO Kinetic Pinnacle worth. It opens space to things like (channel then 2-action impulse + blast and blast (repeat this process util you occupy your 3rd action with another Sustained impulse (like 2 suns for example) and keeping using a non-overflow impulse + quickened blast) or (blast/stance + quickened blast 3-action overflow and repeat) or (blast/stance + sustain + quickened blast + 2-action overflow) and so on. To have a quickened action to blast or stance will improve your action economy a lot and improves the number o impulses combination that you can do per round.
I barely can see an extra lvl 18 impulse being better than this. Also if you want an extra lvl 18 impulse probably to get Omnikinesis makes more sense once that you will able to switch one of your impulses, including all lvl 18 options that you have access to any other impulse of same level at cost of 1-action. This may cost one of your actions buy will give you more versatility than just take another lvl 18 impulse.
In building characters I could never see myself passing up kinetic pinnacle. Benefits of your aura just seem too important. Whether it's a stance, resistance/immunity, impulse reactions, or just an extra blast. It also stacks with final gate, if you wanted it to.
You guys are probably right. Kinetic Pinnacle better action economy with Overflow Impulses. You can change out the level 17 Expand the Gate impulse for a lvl 18 impulse. You don't need more than two of them.
Elemental Resistance is better than I thought. You get both resistances for an element. Resistance and immunity to cold and fire or earth and poison is pretty nice.
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Immunity to Cold and Fire is very strong, but "air", "earth", "metal", "water", and "wood" don't seem like that useful of things to resist/be immune to since you're relying on tags to tell you whether your resistance applies, whereas "cold", "fire", "electricity", and "poison" are fairly common types of damage.
So Fire gets the best Elemental Resistance but all the other ones are kind of meh.
You guys are probably right. Kinetic Pinnacle better action economy with Overflow Impulses. You can change out the level 17 Expand the Gate impulse for a lvl 18 impulse. You don't need more than two of them.
Elemental Resistance is better than I thought. You get both resistances for an element. Resistance and immunity to cold and fire or earth and poison is pretty nice.
Not sure what you mean about changing out your expand the gate impulse for a lvl 18 impulse? Level 18 impulses can only be taken at 18 or 20. Unless I'm not picking up what you're putting down.
Also I think the biggest draw of elemental resistance outside of immune to fire is being immune to your own huge aoes. Standing in hell of 1m needles and walking through it, or in the he middle of the shattered mountain weeps.
You guys are probably right. Kinetic Pinnacle better action economy with Overflow Impulses. You can change out the level 17 Expand the Gate impulse for a lvl 18 impulse. You don't need more than two of them.
Elemental Resistance is better than I thought. You get both resistances for an element. Resistance and immunity to cold and fire or earth and poison is pretty nice.
Not sure what you mean about changing out your expand the gate impulse for a lvl 18 impulse? Level 18 impulses can only be taken at 18 or 20. Unless I'm not picking up what you're putting down.
Also I think the biggest draw of elemental resistance outside of immune to fire is being immune to your own huge aoes. Standing in hell of 1m needles and walking through it, or in the he middle of the shattered mountain weeps.
Are you sure? It says for Gate's Threshold you can take an impulse feat of your level or lower.
Reflow elements does not say the Impulse need be the same level. So if you are higher level, you could take higher level impulses for Gate's Threshold right?
Feats I understand because there is a rule saying feats are the same level or lower of the replacement.
But Gate's Threshold doesn't have the same requirement. It says you're level or lower. So you can Reflow them all with higher level abilities as you gain levels.
I'm sure someone can post the relevant rule applying to class features if I'm missing something. I know the rule for feats, but class features are different right?
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So locked in at 5, 9, 13, and 17.
I looked over the level 18 impulses. I can't see taking more than one. Some are not even worth taking.
So one level 18 and Kinetic Pinnacle likely a better option.
Just know that there's some discourse with effortless impulse and final gate, with some people saying they basically have the same trigger and thus don't stack. Personally I'm of the opinion they would work in tandem, but I avoid taking options where opinions are split since I don't want to deal with wobbly rulings.
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You don't really need Kinetic Pinnacle with Final Gate?
Final Gate allows you to activate your Kinetic Aura with a free action at the start of your turn using a Stance or Channel Elements.
Kinetic Pinnacle quickens you with the extra action to use a Stance or Blast.
So if you had Final Gate and Kinetic Pinnacle, you could activate the gate for free action, use 3 Action Overflow Impulse, then activate Kinetic Aura at the end of your round so your Kinetic Aura is never off unless you move or something.
If you activate the aura at the end of your turn, then Final Gate doesn't activate next round so it becomes sort of redundant unless you don't want the aura down between turns.
Might it not be better to take another level 18 Impulse? What do you think? Is Kinetic Pinnacle worth it or take another level 18 impulse?
Kinetic Pinnacle, at worst, is a free elemental blast, and Final Gate does nothing if you aren't running a bunch of overflow.
That said, Kineticist is one of the classes for whom "another level 18 feat" is a surprisingly compelling alternative, yes... especially if you took Rapid Reattunement. It does depend on your elements/build/etc, though.