Differences between a Demigod and a true Deity?

[Arkat]

Besides the extra domain, what's are the practical differences between a Demigod (Empyreal Lord, Archdevil, Demon Lord, Kyton Demagogue, etc.) and a true Pathfinder deity like Iomedae or Erastil?

Has it ever been quantified anywhere, either in any official Paizo product, forum posting, podcast, or video?

If it hasn't, does anyone on this, or any other, forum have a "realistic" clue of what those differences are?

I'm considering running a game where the players are all playing Tier 10 Mythic characters and their mission is to prevent Pazuzu from taking revenge on Sarkoris for the death of one of his progeny, Deskari.

Pazuzu will be on the very edge of attaining true godhood when he decides to break through the sealed Worldwound for some nefarious reason (maybe one beyond just mere revenge).

My intent is for Pazuzu to break the seal and attain godhood somehow. It will be up to the players to actually kill him, or at least prevent him from fully realizing these brand new and surely disorienting powers.

I just need to know what those some of those powers might be?

I assume there will be some stat boosts and some HP boost besides those added by the CON boost, but I'd like to know what sort of stat boosts can we expect a beginner deity to get? +10 to every stat maybe? How about a "True Deity" boost to HP?

What about other powers besides some extra spells from that fifth domain?

Thanks for your consideration.

[Boomerang Nebula]

At the game mechanics level the difference seems to be simply that demigods have stat blocks and true deities do not. I’m not sure if that is a game design decision or not, but that is certainly how it appears to me.

The book Planar Adventurers has some information on demigods.

[Boomerang Nebula]

I just checked: page 70 of Planar Adventures states that demigods have stat blocks and deities are “beyond the concept of rules”.

[D3stro 2119]

Boomerang Nebula wrote:

I just checked: page 70 of Planar Adventures states that demigods have stat blocks and deities are “beyond the concept of rules”.

Maybe it's my experience with Exlated, Scion rpg, DnD 4e and comics like Marvel and DC talking, but frankly I rather dislike the portrayal of deities as limitless and omnipotent creatures of plot device-- ""beyond the concept of rules"" honestly just sounds really awkward and edgy/confrontational, almost like a middle finger to people who do want to use deities more directly in their games.

ps: as a side note, it especially rankles me to see the likes of Cayden Cailean, a low-mid level fighting man, become orders of magnitude more powerful than the strongest Empyreal Lords and Archdevils by accident.

[Arkat]

Boomerang Nebula wrote:

I just checked: page 70 of Planar Adventures states that demigods have stat blocks and deities are “beyond the concept of rules”.

That’s a real cop out if you ask me.

Sure, no stats for Pharasma, Sarenrae, or ant other really old and well-established true deities.

I get that.

But I’m not talking about one of those true gods.

I’m talking about a Demigod who is either on the very cusp of attaining true godhood or who achieved it split seconds before being confronted by the PCs and he hasn’t grasped his full abilities yet.

[Senko]

Arkat wrote:

Boomerang Nebula wrote:

I just checked: page 70 of Planar Adventures states that demigods have stat blocks and deities are “beyond the concept of rules”.

That’s a real cop out if you ask me.

Sure, no stats for Pharasma, Sarenrae, or ant other really old and well-established true deities.

I get that.

But I’m not talking about one of those true gods.

I’m talking about a Demigod who is either on the very cusp of attaining true godhood or who achieved it split seconds before being confronted by the PCs and he hasn’t grasped his full abilities yet.

Its because if you give something stats players will kill it and they want to avoid that with the deities. Its not that Gods can't die (see Aroden) but they want such an action to be solely in the range of DM discretion if your game is going that way. So Quasi and Demi gods have stat blocks and increasing power levels. For example a demi-god has a realm they can shape while a quasi-god doesn't but full gods have nothing so a player can't kill them.

For what your after I'd suggest going back to 3rd ed. Say use this divine ranks and divine abilities.

It'd need a bit of adjustment but you could probably work it so that there's a transition period as a being ascends starting off as the demi-god stat block then getting some new powers e.g. all dice rolls are a natural twenty and they can only be killed by Plot McGuffin TM (unique for each diety), gain some portfolio abilties or the like. Then over a period of time (dependant on various factors e.g. method of ascension, original power, etc as appropriate to your plot) they grow stronger until they reach full dietyhood where they're beyond the rules and function as the DM's will.

That way the players are on a time limit he's already made his ascension but they have a small window where they can still kill him before he grows beyond their reach. Insert campaign where they gain mythic ranks 1-10 while seeking the Plot McGuffin TM before the final confrontation against a being that can still terrify tier 10 mythic characters.

EDIT
You could even tie the two together and have them present for his ritual succeeding where his ascension to godhood also is what makes them mythic characters and potentially where killing him will cause them to lose their mythic powers as the god they're tied to is now dead.

[Arkat]

Senko wrote:

Its because if you give something stats players will kill it and they want to avoid that with the deities. Its not that Gods can't die (see Aroden) but they want such an action to be solely in the range of DM discretion if your game is going that way. So Quasi and Demi gods have stat blocks and increasing power levels. For example a demi-god has a realm they can shape while a quasi-god doesn't but full gods have nothing so a player can't kill them.

For what your after I'd suggest going back to 3rd ed. Say use this divine ranks and divine abilities.

It'd need a bit of adjustment but you could probably work it so that there's a transition period as a being ascends starting off as the demi-god stat block then getting some new powers e.g. all dice rolls are a natural twenty and they can only be killed by Plot McGuffin TM (unique for each diety), gain some portfolio abilties or the like. Then over a period of time (dependant on various factors e.g. method of ascension, original power, etc as appropriate to your plot) they grow stronger until they reach full dietyhood where they're beyond the rules and function as the DM's will.

That way the players are on a time limit he's already made his ascension but they have a small window where they can still kill him before he grows beyond their...

Thank you.

That was at least helpful.

Question: Where were the Salient Divine Abilities originally from? 3.5 Deities & Demigods?

[I grok do u]

Arkat wrote:

Boomerang Nebula wrote:

I just checked: page 70 of Planar Adventures states that demigods have stat blocks and deities are “beyond the concept of rules”.

That’s a real cop out if you ask me.

Sure, no stats for Pharasma, Sarenrae, or ant other really old and well-established true deities.

I get that.

But I’m not talking about one of those true gods.

I’m talking about a Demigod who is either on the very cusp of attaining true godhood or who achieved it split seconds before being confronted by the PCs and he hasn’t grasped his full abilities yet.

Fair enough, but that's the game design point: true deities become stat-less and beyond PC reach without GM design. They don't need to "get used to their new power," because time is meaningless to them or they just get divine revelation, or whatever, whatever... ineffable.

Senko's suggestions are good starting points. Giving boosts to the given stats as it nears ascension or providing pathways to knock him back down into stats are your best approaches.

I would suggest Protection domain as the extra, since the original mythology suggests Pazuzu as an apotropaic demon who drive out evil winds.

[Zepheri]

I will say that the difference between a demigod and a god is that a demigod help and is always in the problem of her doctrine as for a god he never interfere he only give you spell, some encrypted message and sometimes a divine intervention (mostly 1 of 1.000.000)

[Senko]

Arkat wrote:

Senko wrote:

Its because if you give something stats players will kill it and they want to avoid that with the deities. Its not that Gods can't die (see Aroden) but they want such an action to be solely in the range of DM discretion if your game is going that way. So Quasi and Demi gods have stat blocks and increasing power levels. For example a demi-god has a realm they can shape while a quasi-god doesn't but full gods have nothing so a player can't kill them.

For what your after I'd suggest going back to 3rd ed. Say use this divine ranks and divine abilities.

It'd need a bit of adjustment but you could probably work it so that there's a transition period as a being ascends starting off as the demi-god stat block then getting some new powers e.g. all dice rolls are a natural twenty and they can only be killed by Plot McGuffin TM (unique for each diety), gain some portfolio abilties or the like. Then over a period of time (dependant on various factors e.g. method of ascension, original power, etc as appropriate to your plot) they grow stronger until they reach full dietyhood where they're beyond the rules and function as the DM's will.

That way the players are on a time limit he's already made his ascension but they have a small window where they can still kill him before he grows beyond their...

Thank you.

That was at least helpful.

Question: Where were the Salient Divine Abilities originally from? 3.5 Deities & Demigods?

Yes that's the book they're in though its been a long time since I've looked at it.

[D3stro 2119]

I grok do u wrote:

Arkat wrote:

Boomerang Nebula wrote:

I just checked: page 70 of Planar Adventures states that demigods have stat blocks and deities are “beyond the concept of rules”.

That’s a real cop out if you ask me.

Sure, no stats for Pharasma, Sarenrae, or ant other really old and well-established true deities.

I get that.

But I’m not talking about one of those true gods.

I’m talking about a Demigod who is either on the very cusp of attaining true godhood or who achieved it split seconds before being confronted by the PCs and he hasn’t grasped his full abilities yet.

Fair enough, but that's the game design point: true deities become stat-less and beyond PC reach without GM design. They don't need to "get used to their new power," because time is meaningless to them or they just get divine revelation, or whatever, whatever... ineffable.

Senko's suggestions are good starting points. Giving boosts to the given stats as it nears ascension or providing pathways to knock him back down into stats are your best approaches.

I would suggest Protection domain as the extra, since the original mythology suggests Pazuzu as an apotropaic demon who drive out evil winds.

Frankly this seems rather counter to the game's in world lore. In fact the very idea that all deities ought to be omnipotent beings of plot device (at least in terms of how you seem to emphasize here, that ""time is menaingless"", ""ieffable or whatever whatever"") is pretty heavily contradicted by game's own lore.

The DnD 3.5/4e take on it is probably more accurate to what the op wants to represent, to give a actual answer.

[Pizza Lord]

Senko wrote:

Arkat wrote:

Question: Where were the Salient Divine Abilities originally from? 3.5 Deities & Demigods?

Yes that's the book they're in though its been a long time since I've looked at it.

I have the books, all I can remember from reading them is that Ares, God of War would totally crush Hextor, God of War.

And also Gruumsh, god of the orcs, would pretty much own Corellon Larethian, god of elves, if not for the one arbitrary divine rank they made Corellon higher.

[I grok do u]

D3stro 2119 wrote:

Frankly this seems rather counter to the game's in world lore. In fact the very idea that all deities ought to be omnipotent beings of plot device (at least in terms of how you seem to emphasize here, that ""time is menaingless"", ""ieffable or whatever whatever"") is pretty heavily contradicted by game's own lore.

The DnD 3.5/4e take on it is probably more accurate to what the op wants to represent, to give a actual answer.

James Jacobs wrote:

Demigods (which include things like demon lords and archdevils and great old ones) are generally CR 26 to CR 30 in power. Below them are the quasi-deities like nascent demon lords, mythic heroes with the divine source ability, and the like, which are generally CR 21 to CR 25 but can be lower or higher.

Above demigods, which includes all deities who grant 5 domains (note that demigods grant 4 domains, never 5 domains, and quasi-deities grant one to four domains, depending)... there are no rules for how powerful they are. The one thing they share (apart from granting 5 domain choices to clerics) is that they do NOT have stat blocks, and can as a result do more or less anything you want them to be able to do for your story. Obviously, since there's more than one deity at this level, there is a range of power. Pharasma is the most powerful of them all (even more so than Rovagug), but we haven't revealed who is the least powerful, nor have we really pegged the others in on any sort of power tier, since that's kind of irrelevant, since they don't have stats.

As you say, those DnD ideas of deities are probably closer to how many perceive godhood in game, and a great source to accomplish what Arkat is looking for. I'm just quoting JJ here for that Pathfinder specifically keeping Golarian's "true" deities stat-less. Lore-wise, note the apotheosis of Nocticula, wherein she lost her CR 30 demon lord stats and gained her extra domain.

"True" gods can absolutely still be created, killed, transformed, etc - just there are no hard stats or rules, it is left to the DM and group to build that story, as they see fit.