Discarding recharged cards

[Slacker2010]

Been a while and for some reason my Search-fu isnt finding what I want.

Specifically This is about Zova in Ultimate Wilderness. She has the ability to recharge cards with the animal trait for her STR, DEX, & CON checks. On my STR combat check, I revealed Fire Gecko (add 1d4 and fire trait, but if you fail it has to be discarded). Then I trigger her animal recharge power using the Gecko to boost my combat. Then I fail the check. My assumption is that the card then has two places to go: Discard due to Firegecko and recharge due to her character power.

I assume you would take the worst location. There are similar threads with this and Amiri revealing a weapon then buring with character power, and Imrijka revealing a weapon then recharging for her character power.

Specifically in this case, I have the power that allows me to recharge animals I use for their power. So regardless it gets recharged.

Friend at the table thinks this is different as the power is on the gecko. Since the Fire Gecko power is waiting to see the end of the check, its locked in a limbo and cant be used for anything else. I disagree.

Going to go over this with him again.

[Jenceslav]

Slacker2010 wrote:

Friend at the table thinks this is different as the power is on the gecko. Since the Fire Gecko power is waiting to see the end of the check, its locked in a limbo and cant be used for anything else. I disagree.

OK, I believe you may be talking about two different issues, but maybe I did not understand correctly.

Issue 1) It seems your friend suggests that playing the Fire Gecko to add 1d4 for its power prevents you from using it for Zova's power. If that's their opinion, I would tend to disagree. Reveal means it gets back into your hand. Any power that happens later, will happen anyway. If the Fire Gecko were written as: "On your combat check, display to add 1d4. If you fail this check, discard this card; otherwise, draw it." then you would not be able to use for Zova's powers.
Similarly, you can reveal reach weapons and they stay in your hand, even though there is a power "you may additionally discard to reroll". You can't reroll at this time (before rolling) and only after the check is failed or succeeded you can use this "waiting" power. This seems very similar to Fire Gecko in principle. But that's my understanding of the rules. It's not a power like pre-Core Alchemical bombs, where you actually have to test Craft to recharge a card so you set the card aside until the time comes to find out what happens with it.
Issue 2) What happens when you fail the check - is it discarded from the recharged position? There were several discussions about it and the consensus is that you have to perform the action even though the card is somewhere else. One power says "recharge" as a cost, the other says "recharge" as a trigger, neither of them conflicts each other, so you probably have to discard the Gecko.

[Slacker2010]

Jenceslav wrote:

stuff

thanks for the response.

Do you have any links to relevant threads?

[Slacker2010]

Link
Link
Both of these make it sound like the dogslicer still gets recharged by Valeros, due to his power triggering off of weapons that discard for their power. Under your explanation, wouldnt the second "power" of the dogslicer be a cost and not trigger his power?

EDIT:
Found another one thread
Link

[Whipstitch]

I agree with Jenceslav regarding "issue 2". I thought I recalled a post telling us that a card could still have an effect move it somewhere, even if it was "out of sight" (my words, not the post in question). I believe Zova can recharge the Fire Gecko using her power, and if she fails the check, the Fire Gecko can still be (and would be) discarded, because that's where you were told it should go. I don't recall the issue relating to "cost" versus "trigger".

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find that post, but I'll add a link if I can find it later.

[Jenceslav]

I used the cost / trigger just as a convenient shorthand (inspired by MtG) that was meant to convey that these two things happen in different steps of an encounter. "Cost" = when you play the card or power, "trigger" = the power on the card that becomes (in this case) active after the final reroll. Maybe I should have said so? :)
Zova's power does not wait until something else might happen later in turn.

[Slacker2010]

Jenceslav wrote:

I used the cost / trigger just as a convenient shorthand (inspired by MtG) that was meant to convey that these two things happen in different steps of an encounter. "Cost" = when you play the card or power, "trigger" = the power on the card that becomes (in this case) active after the final reroll. Maybe I should have said so? :)

Zova's power does not wait until something else might happen later in turn.

So using your terminology, a cost doesnt count as a power? I feel this is not what is referenced in the dogslicer/Valeros first link provided. Was there a newer ruling?

[Whipstitch]

The Dogslicer case is different. In that case, the primary discussion was over Valeros's power that could turn a discard into a recharge. Vic said that what mattered was where the card ended up. If it ended up discarded (and it had been played), Valeros could turn that discard into a recharge.

Zova's power, on the other hand, doesn't change one action into another. It simply lets her recharge a card for an effect. Another effect (on the card) says that after the encounter is over (since that's when you know whether you succeeded at defeating the bane or not), the card may need to be discarded. Your question, essentially, is whether a card that was previously recharged can subsequently be required to be discarded. Nothing in the Dogslicer example argues against this being the case.

As I stated earlier, I believe we've been told that an effect can happen to a card even if that card is temporarily out of view. I believe you recharge the Fire Gecko, but if you fail to defeat the bane, you retrieve it and discard it.

[Whipstitch]

I think I found the post I was thinking of. Look at the second half of Vic's post, after the "---". His last paragraph is this exact type of situation.

The pertinent text regarding Chicken Sabre:

Vic wrote:

So the first thing you do is reveal the saber. Do the "set aside" rules happen here? They say "Sometimes you don’t know what action to take [when you play a card] and must leave a card set aside until you do." The Saber's power says "reveal... you may additionally discard." Discarding is something you may do after and in addition to revealing, not instead of revealing, so there's no question here: you're revealing it.

Then—while still in the Determine Which Skill You're Using action—you use Quinn's power: you recharge (or reload) the Saber, so now it's in your deck.
. . . . So what about that other text on the Saber: "If any d8 rolled on this check is a 1, treat it as a 3, then discard this card. If the check is against a monster, you may use the result for any subsequent combat checks against it."?
On page 7, Playing Cards says that when you play a card, "You must do everything the power says when possible." And a bit further on, "Cards often have instructions that you need to follow after you play the card; follow these instructions even if the card is no longer in your hand (even if the card is out of your sight, such as in the vault or in your deck)." So you have to finish executing that power, even if the card is in your deck. If you roll a 1 on that d8, you'll need to fetch the card back out of your deck and discard it.

As with Vic's example of the Sabre, Zova's power in unambiguous. You know what to do with the card - recharge it for her power.

Later, if she fails the check, you would "fetch the card back out of your deck and discard it".

[Slacker2010]

Thanks Whipstitch, that is what im looking for. If you do find the Cost/Trigger one, let me know. Still odd that powers dont work for that.

[skizzerz]

There is no concept/separation of cost and effect in PACG. Everything in a power’s text is part of that power.

Discarding a card for its power means that two things must be true:
1. You used a power printed on that same card
2. In the course of using that power, the card is discarded

For point 2, it is not relevant why the card is discarded. It could’ve been an instruction on the card itself, on your location, or in the storybook. As long as both points are true, the card was discarded for its power.

So in the Fire Gecko case where you fail the roll, it does indeed count as discarding it for its power. For Zova (with the Weretouched power feat that lets you recharge Animal allies discarded for their powers), the sequencing would be as follows:

1. Reveal Fire Gecko for its power
2. Recharge Fire Gecko for Zova’s power to add Survival
(Other cards are played here, check is made and it fails)
3. Fetch Fire Gecko out of your deck and recharge it instead of discarding it per Zova’s Weretouched power.

Note that step 3 is only relevant if you’ve recharged other cards or shuffled your deck since recharging Fire Gecko in step 2

[Jenceslav]

skizzerz wrote:

3. Fetch Fire Gecko out of your deck and recharge it instead of discarding it per Zova’s Weretouched power.

Note that step 3 is only relevant if you’ve recharged other cards or shuffled your deck since recharging Fire Gecko in step 2

I'd like to add that it's also relevant if, and only if, you chose the Weretouched role and checked the power feat box in "When you would banish a spell that has the Animal trait (□ or discard an ally that has the Animal trait) for its power, you may instead recharge it." Base Zova does not have this druidic ability.

As you correctly stated, this effect should take place, because the "discard this ally" is a power on the Fire Gecko (even though I use the term "trigger" or "condition" in my head to understand the sequence of things, it's not in PACG rules, as you also said :) ).