Absolutely.
You guys know me too well.
Since we're talking about Valeros' recharge, I have a question: what happens if I use it on a dogslicer, and then roll a 1 on one of the d6s? Does it get discarded at that point despite being on the bottom of my deck, or has it already been taken out of play and can't be redirected?
This was already answered here.
|
Since we're talking about Valeros' recharge, I have a question: what happens if I use it on a dogslicer, and then roll a 1 on one of the d6s? Does it get discarded at that point despite being on the bottom of my deck, or has it already been taken out of play and can't be redirected?This was already answered here.
Thanks for the link! That probably answers my question, but it's not actually quite what I was getting at. That discussion seems to relate to the following scenario:
Valeros is making a combat check. He reveals a Dogslicer, then rolls his 1d10+3 and adds 1d6 for the weapon. The d10 comes up a 7, and the d6 comes up a 1. The total of the roll is 13, and the Dogslicer is discarded - but Valeros can use his special ability to recharge the weapon instead.
Whereas I was going for something slightly different:
Valeros is making a combat check. He reveals a Dogslicer, then rolls his 1d10+3, adds 1d6 for the weapon, and chooses to discard the Dogslicer to add an additional 1d6 to the roll. He uses his special ability to recharge the weapon instead of discarding it. The d10 comes up a 7, and both the d6s come up 1s. The total of the roll is 16, and the Dogslicer is...?
If you want to get a better sense of the distinction, imagine the same hypothetical that Vic used in your link: what if the Dogslicer banished itself instead of discarding itself? What would happen if Valeros had first recharged it to gain the extra d6?
I admit I don't fully understand the timing rules for things like paying costs (when exactly do I recharge the weapon?), nor is it clear to me how exactly rules text might function in locations other than your hand or while being played. (That last part has come up in other situations, such as discussions about whether you can recharge the various light armors that can be recharged when you reset your hand if the armor in question is not in your hand.) If someone who has a better grasp of such things could walk me through it, I'd be most grateful.
That probably answers my question, but it's not actually quite what I was getting at. That discussion seems to relate to the following scenario:
Valeros is making a combat check. He reveals a Dogslicer, then rolls his 1d10+3 and adds 1d6 for the weapon. The d10 comes up a 7, and the d6 comes up a 1. The total of the roll is 13, and the Dogslicer is discarded - but Valeros can use his special ability to recharge the weapon instead.
Whereas I was going for something slightly different:
Valeros is making a combat check. He reveals a Dogslicer, then rolls his 1d10+3, adds 1d6 for the weapon, and chooses to discard the Dogslicer to add an additional 1d6 to the roll. He uses his special ability to recharge the weapon instead of discarding it. The d10 comes up a 7, and both the d6s come up 1s. The total of the roll is 16, and the Dogslicer is...?
From the linked thread:
You have to play the card to trigger the first power; the fact that the first power can trigger the second power doesn't change the fact that you played it. All Valeros's power cares about is that you played it, and that ultimately you would be discarding it after that play.
I think Vic's point here is it doesn't matter if the weapon is discarded to activate the extra dice, discarded because you rolled a 1 on a d6, or both... as long as you played the card and it ended up being discarded, Valeros can recharge it.
It doesn't matter which one of Dogslicer's powers Valeros uses to discard the card, it gets recharged. However, if he 'discards' (i.e. recharges) it for an extra d6 then he cannot ALSO turn 6s into 7s since the card is no longer in his hand to 'discard' to power the 6->7 ability.
I'd prefer to make this post at home, where I could find a card or two that corroborates my stance, but since I'm at work and bored here we go!
The way I figure it, the 1 > 3 power of the Dogslicer is a passive, and something that would be in effect whether you discarded it for an extra d6 or not. If the card said "You MAY discard this card to convert 1s to 3s" then I'd think it was an either or, but I figure a compulsory discard works differently, and my opinion is predicated on the idea that a card's effects remain in play until the check its affecting is resolved, whether or not the card is discarded/recharged/whatever. This has to be the case, because otherwise you could either discard a Scythe +1 for an extra die OR take advantage of its critical hit power. That the Scythe doesn't require you to discard on a critical hit isn't really relevant here, just the fact that two powers are in operation at once. The Dogslicer doesn't care for what reason you discard the card, just that you do.
I agree with @Dave Riley. The Dogslicer says "If any d6 rolled for this weapon is a 1, count it as a 3, then discard this card." Nothing about that is optional, much like the "If you don't have the Arcane/Divine skill, banish this card" found on spells.
The discard does not activate the power, rolling a 1 on a d6 does; the discard is just a part of the effect (which Valeros can then convert into a recharge).
Chief Technical Officer
|
Any paragraph in the power section of a boon that doesn't involve playing the card for a particular effect is not itself a power—it's a mandatory action that you must take when you play the card.
So the Dogslicer breaking on a 1 is not a choice; it's part of playing the Dogslicer, and can't be short-circuited by "discarding it first."
(If we'd wanted that, it would have said something like "If any d6 rolled for this weapon is a 1, you may discard this card to count that d6 as 3.")
Sorry - I didn't have the card with me and reading the posts above I thought it was worded differently (i.e. "if you roll a 6 then discard this card to treat them as 7s").
Please completely ignore my previous statement and I should go back to trying (in vain) to get some proper work done this week instead of feeding my forum addiction!
|
|
So, is it true that you leave cards "in play" somewhere other than deck, discard pile or hand until they finish resolving? Because part of my confusion was the question of timing. The Dogslicer says you may discard it to add an additional d6 to the roll - to me, that seemed to imply it would be discarded (or, in Valeros' case, recharged) before the check even occurred, and thus, before we find out if there are any 1s rolled.
That's what provoked my question originally, actually. Because if it's true that it is discarded/recharged before the roll, then it is either in the discard pile or at the bottom of the deck when the 1s come up and it is supposed to be discarded. Is that even possible?
On the other hand, if there's a "in play" limbo state in the game, it seems like the "reveal, then do stuff, then discard" text on cards like Cure is taking a very long way around for no really good reason.
|
|
Sure, and of course I get that. But if cards being played are in limbo until after they finish resolving, the card wouldn't hit the discard pile until after the reshuffle either, so it wouldn't be able to get into the draw deck. That's why I said the wording is more complicated than it needs to be, *if* the card is in limbo. If the card goes immediately to wherever it goes, though - and Cure is the reason why I assumed that was the case - then it goes back to the question of whether you can try to discard something that has already been discharged.
If the card goes immediately to wherever it goes, though - and Cure is the reason why I assumed that was the case - then it goes back to the question of whether you can try to discard something that has already been discharged.
Don't over think it. You're not trying to discard the Dogslicer, you're discarding it as a result of another power. If the discard was optional (ie, to activate some power) you're absolutely correct; you cannot choose to activate a power on a card that is not in your hand (or otherwise in your control), but that doesn't mean that additional required powers can't/don't activate. Compare this situation to spells; the "banish this card" power still activates after you've discarded, right?
Think of it this way if it helps:
If you're not Valeros, you can discard it first to get the extra die (it's now on top of your discard pile); the second power forces you to discard it, so it goes from the top of your discard pile... to the top of your discard pile (doesn't move).
If you're Valeros, you can discard recharge it first to get the extra die (it's now at the bottom of your deck); the second power forces you to discard recharge it, so it goes from the bottom of your deck to... the bottom of your deck (doesn't move).
Make sense?