Ok, dogslicer and dogslicer +1 can be displayed for its regular bonus, and it turns 1's into 3's and forces you to discard if that happens.
What about when you choose to discard it for the extra damage? Now that its not in your hand, that means it no longer turns 1's to 3's right?
That's how I'm playing for now, but I just relooked at one of the newer magic weapons that have a similar upgrade ability. I think heavy pick for instance, turns 6's to 7's. If I follow the same logic like the dogslicer, if i discard it for the extra dice power, does it lose the upgrade power since I don't have it out... or does it retain that ability since it doesn't say you have to discard it if it happens.
And if the latter is true... then why wouldn't the dogslicer turn 1's into 3's no matter whether you discard it or not? I mean, I know you can't discard it if you already have... but maybe thats just a redundancy?
Looking forward to everyone's thoughts!
Motrax
I've played Dogslicer so that whether or not you discarded the card for the additional die, if you rolled a 1 it was a 3. Here is why:
If any d6 rolled for this weapon is a 1, count it as 3, then discard this card.
You aren't told to discard the card to activate that power. You are just told to discard it after you do that, as a consequence. To me, that means even if you already discarded the card you can do it.
And I think this is clarified in the updated rulebook.
If a card instructs you to do something impossible, like draw a card from an empty deck, ignore that instruction.
You are instructed to discard the Dogslicer. That is impossible if you are already discarded it. Ignore that instruction. But discarding it isn't a precondition for turning 1s into 3s. Its an instruction after doing so. So you can ignore it if it is impossible.
If it was meant to be a condition for turning 1s to 3s, it would say something like "If any d6 rolled for this weapon is a 1, you may discard this card to count it as 3."
Oh, just noticed the last part of your post. Interesting. You might be right...
In fairness I should have noted I edited my post to add that in. I hadn't noticed that anyone else had posted, but maybe you were in midpost when I did so.
And I added it because i thought that was a clearer way of saying it.
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I would think, though, that once you discard, that card is non longer in your hand...so you dont have access to any of its other powers anymore.
Yeah, but I think that is an already active power. Its just one that hasn't necessarily been applied because you haven't rolled the dice.
What if you discard Impaler of Thorns for the lower difficulty and then fail the roll - would you also still gain access to the reroll for a discard even though you'd already discarded? I don't have my cards in front of me to look at the exact card wording to see how similar it is to the Dogslicer wording.
By my understanding, no.
If you fail a combat check with this weapon, you may discard this card to ignore the result and reroll the dice. You must take the second result.
The discard in that sentence is to activate the power, not a simple instruction from the card. If you've discarded it once, you can't discard it again. So you can't activate that power.
Just noticed that the Dogslicer is nice for Valeros since he can use his 'recharge instead of discard' power to recharge it before discarding it due to a 1. (Aid and Sabretooth Tiger for more d6s!)
Chief Technical Officer
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Any paragraph in the power section of a boon that doesn’t involve playing the card for a particular effect is not itself a power—it’s a mandatory action that you must take when you play the card.
So whether you chose only to reveal, or to reveal and discard, any 1s rolled turn into 3s and force you to discard it.
Any paragraph in the power section of a boon that doesn’t involve playing the card for a particular effect is not itself a power—it’s a mandatory action that you must take when you play the card.So whether you chose only to reveal or to reveal and discard, any 1s rolled turn into 3s and force you to discard it.
Ah. I like how Vic's post highlights that the "1s to 3s" isn't really optional either. So if you roll a single 1 but the check was high enough to succeed the 1 still becomes a 3 and you discard the Dog Slicer. I hadn't played it that way before.
Thanks for the help Vic.
Any paragraph in the power section of a boon that doesn’t involve playing the card for a particular effect is not itself a power—it’s a mandatory action that you must take when you play the card.So whether you chose only to reveal, or to reveal and discard, any 1s rolled turn into 3s and force you to discard it.
So does this mean Valeros cannot recharge a dog slicer that is discarded as a result of a 1 being rolled. The card is not actually played, correct?
I think that if Valeros chose to recharge it, via using his power, for the bonus die, then rolls a 1, the 1 becomes a 3 but he doesn't discard it, because he already recharged it.
If he only revealed it, and rolls a 1, then the 1 becomes a 3 and he discards it. He can not recharge it now because that discard isn't playing a weapon.
That is just my take on it.
You play cards in the "determine the die" and "play cards and use powers that affect the check" steps. The 1s turn to 3s during the "attempt the roll" step when you aren't playing cards, or at least not playing the dogslicer.
That is my thinking. But you could be right.
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Hmmmm.... I don't know. So you don't think that the discard action for Valeros has to be directly related to playing it, as in activating a power?
Then if I played a weapon and only revealed it and then took damage, why couldn't I extend the same logic to discarding it at that point for the damage and getting to recharge it?
That's the one problem I have with going that far with it. I'm still thinking the discard action has to be directly tied to playing the card for Valeros to get to recharge it.
Oh. And I didn't mean that he could only use his power on the "determine the die" and "use powers and play cards" step. I just meant that during each step he can use his power 1 time. And for Dogslicer when he gets to "attempt the roll" he isn't playing a weapon at that step so he can't use his power.
For weapons like Glaive, he is playing a weapon at the attempt the roll step, so he can use his power.
I meant my example to be specifically about Dogslicer. Sorry it wasn't clear on that.
So for me he can recharge the weapon if during that particular step he activated a power on the weapon by discarding it.
Listen to Vic. He speaks wise.
So even if Valeros recharged it, he has to discard it if he rolls a 1? I'm fine with that, but it actually raises a question: I know played spells are kind of in "limbo" until you get to attempt the recharge check. But what about things like this? When do you actually put them on your discard pile?
I'd always thought (though I don't know why) that, technically, weapons with a "you may additionally discard this card to add..." were revealed during the "Determine the die" step and discarded during the "Play cards and use powers that affect the check" step. Though I'd wondered if they were simply discarded during the "determine the die" step.
So if Valeros recharged it during that step and put it immediately on the bottom of his deck, and then in the next step actually attempts the roll and gets a 1, is he basically getting it back off the bottom of his character deck?
Again, I'm fine with that. I just find it odd for some reason. I guess maybe because you don't normally discard the bottom card of your deck.
That's how I do it practically, since I often have to review the played cards to properly assemble the dice. Which is largely why I wasn't totally sure when they technically went somewhere.
Yeah that's my take on it too - this pretty much only applies to the Dogslicer, as the other weapon discard powers are all worded differently.
However I'd like to know about FatePAC's question regarding Amiri - if the Dogslicer can overrule Valeros' recharge power then why wouldn't it overrule Amiri's bury power? Seems like pretty much the same situation.
In both cases the card has to remember to do something different once it's already been recharged/buried so I don't see a difference there and while burying might seem like it's a more serious cost then recharging, there's no actual rule saying something can't come back from being buried that I'm aware of...
There is actually a hint in the rulebook that buried cards can become unburied.
Bury: Put it under your character card (likely losing access to it for the rest of the scenario).
So its "likely" you won't be able to access it for the rest of the scenario, but that implies it isn't always the case. Of course, I can't think of anything so far that would un-bury a card.
And this is why I thought Valeros, having recharged the card, would not be discarding it (and by extension Amiri would not discard it if she buried it):
If you are instructed to play, reveal, display, discard, recharge,bury, banish, or otherwise manipulate a card, that card must come from your hand unless otherwise specified.
Dogslicer doesn't say to discard it from anywhere in particular, so we are to assume it must come from our hand.
So, I was thinking the other day that:
If generic character reveals the Dogslicer and rolls a 1, it turns into a 3, and you discard the card from your hand.
If generic character discards the Dogslicer and rolls a 1, it turns into a 3, and the card is already discarded so you ignore the instruction to discard it, but it is still discarded.
If Valeros recharges the Dogslicer and rolls a 1, it turns into a 3, but the card is already recharged so he can't discard it from his hand, so he ignores the instruction to discard it.
If Amiri buries the Dogslicer and rolls a 1, it turns into a 3, but the card is already buried so she can't discard it from her hand, so she ignores the instruction to discard it.
That's just what my thought was. Vic and/or Mike may rule otherwise, and perhaps already did so. But was Vic specifically addressing if Valeros recharged it? He only mentioned revealing and discarding it, not recharging it.
An instruction is not negotiable. If it says "you MAY discard...", it is an optional power and Valeros can recharge if it's a weapon. If it DOESN'T say "you may...", it is a required feature of the card and must be obeyed to the letter. Valeros cannot recharge under this circumstance. Vic has already ruled on this in this thread.
I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I wasn't saying it was negotitiable and I wasn't saying Valeros can use his power on this sentence: "If any d6 rolled for this weapon is a 1, count it as 3, then discard this card."
What I was saying was that the rulebook does say you ignore an impossible instruction.
If a card instructs you to do something impossible, like draw a card from an empty deck, ignore that instruction.
And the rulebook says that unless a card says specifically where to discard a card from, it comes from your hand.
If you are instructed to play, reveal, display, discard, recharge, bury, banish, or otherwise manipulate a card, that card must come from your hand unless otherwise specified.
So here is what I was saying for Valeros and how I thought he played the Dogslicer:
Valeros reveals Dogslicer to roll Melee + 1d6.
Valeros additionally discards it to add another 1d6.
Valeros uses his power to instead recharge the Dogslicer. It is now on the bottom of his character deck.
Valeros rolls the dice and one of the d6s is a 1.
The Dogslicer says to count it as a 3 then discard the Dogslicer.
Valeros counts the 1s as 3s.
Valeros didn't see any specification that the Dogslicer should be discarded from anywhere other than his hand and assumes therefore that he is being instructed to discard it from his hand.
Valeros no longer has the Dogslicer in his hand, so discarding it would be impossible.
Valeros ignores the impossible instruction to discard the Dogslicer.
So I'm not saying he applies his power to the part about turning 1s into 3s. I'm saying he applies his power to the discard to get the extra 1d6. And since in doing so the Dogslicer is not in his hand, the instruction of "then discard this card" is impossible for him.
And Vic did not rule on this.
So whether you chose only to reveal, or to reveal and discard, any 1s rolled turn into 3s and force you to discard it.
Vic does not say in there what to do if you recharged it (or buried it for Amiri's sake). He just says that whether you reveal or discard it, if you roll a 1 you end up with it in your discard pile. But he didn't say it ends up there if you recharge or bury it.
Either Valeros doesn't have to discard it if he already recharged it, or Amiri can un-bury it. Which of those sounds more in keeping with the rules and how things work? I think it the first one, that Valeros doesn't have to discard it if he recharged it. I could be wrong, but that is still what I think.
Doesn't the Golden rule cover this situation?
Valeros chooses to use his power to recharge the Dogslicer instead of discarding it. He rolls a 1.
Valeros says "I'm recharging you." Dogslicer says "No you're discarding me." Conflict! Consult the Golden rule!
Golden rule says, "Character cards trump other card types (which includes weapons). Valeros wins the conflict!"
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Chief Technical Officer
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All Valeros's power cares about is what the ultimate disposition of the card would be. Finish one thing before you start something else—in this case, finish doing everything that the weapon card says. At the end of all that, if the card is being discarded, then you can use his power to recharge it instead; if it's not being discarded, you can't.
There's no conflict, so no need to consult the golden rule.
Fair enough. What about the question earlier about Amiri's power?
Amiri reveals Dogslicer for her combat check. She uses her power to bury Dogslicer to add 1d10. She rolls a 1, so Dogslicer instructs her to discard it.
I think there's a conflict now. Amiri's says to bury the card, the Dogslicer says to discard it. Amiri's card should take precedence according to the Golden rule, so it should get buried. Right?
Yeah me too. I thought he was saying that the Dogslicer overruled Valeros' power or wouldn't have even brought up the Amiri thing.
Well more to the point when he quoted the rulebook regarding discarding the Dogslicer being mandatory it didn't seem like recharging it would be an option. Ok guess it is.
All Valeros's power cares about is what the ultimate disposition of the card would be. Finish one thing before you start something else—in this case, finish doing everything that the weapon card says. At the end of all that, if the card is being discarded, then you can use his power to recharge it instead; if it's not being discarded, you can't.
There's no conflict, so no need to consult the golden rule.
Thank you for this explanation, by the way. It cleared up a lot of timing issues in my mind about things like Valeros' power ("When you play a weapon, recharge instead of discard") and Lini's power ("When you play an animal ally, recharge instead of discard"). Previously I had assumed these were things that trigger immediately when you play a card, but now I get that these are things that happen after the card has already been played and is on its way to the discard pile. It now makes very clear sense to me why Lini's power cannot be used to prevent animals from being buried while at the Farmhouse.
There is actually a hint in the rulebook that buried cards can become unburied.
Bury: Put it under your character card (likely losing access to it for the rest of the scenario).So its "likely" you won't be able to access it for the rest of the scenario, but that implies it isn't always the case. Of course, I can't think of anything so far that would un-bury a card.
Take a look at the rules for dying and the hint there :)
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You were. As long as the weapon's powers are the reason it is discarded, Valeros can recharge it.