
Calliope5431 |
The cleric is an iconic class, for good reason. It's impressively designed, it has a rich connection to any setting it's in, and it's one of the oldest classes in TTRPGs.
But I've always felt that clerics sort of have a weird theming issue. For some clerics, especially those of gods that are all about goodness, justice, and light like Iomedae and Sarenrae, the thematics of the divine spell list work fine. The divine list also works well for followers of dark and evil deities like Urgathoa or Zon-Kuthon. But for some gods, such as Gozreh or Nethys...why are they using the divine list? Does a hippie follower of Gozreh have more in common with a death cultist of Urgathoa...or their local druid? Are clerics of Nethys more like wizards, or like the avenging crusaders of Iomedae? Deity spells sort of address this, but it's almost universally only 3 spells (ignoring Abraxas and Nethys) and that's not enough to change the class's feel.
So I propose an alternative - clerics have different spellcasting traditions depending on the god (and for non-divine traditions, they don't get deity spells). For instance, clerics of Gozreh use the primal list, clerics of Nethys use the arcane list, and clerics of Mahathallah (queen of illusions) use the occult list. Bonus font spells could either remain heal/harm, or become a suitable spell for the deity in question - fireballs for Mephistopheles, for example. Given how strong heal font already is, I doubt this would break anything, even though fireball is a 3rd level spell while heal is only a 1st.
I can also 100% see this for other classes, for the record. For instance, a divine variant of wizard (similar to the 3.5 archivist) that gets deity spells (just like how Oracles get the Divine Access feat and Sorcerers get the Blessed Blood feat) seems like a reasonable thematic niche that doesn't currently exist. But I thought I'd bring it up for clerics first.
What do people think? Is this a good idea? Are there pitfalls I'm missing? I mostly came up with this because I deeply appreciate themed classes like kineticist, and wanted to see clerics more closely match their deity's particular vibe.
I'd also love to hear suggestions on which list matches which deity - Gozreh (primal) and Nethys (arcane) are both pretty easy, but for gods like Asmodeus or Shelyn I'm less certain.

Teridax |

I can agree with the statement of the problem, if not the solution. You are right that there is a bit of a problem with divine servants accessing a one-size-fits-all spell list, because different gods have radically different portfolios that have nothing to do with one another, including little to no place on the good-evil axis that sanctification is about to cover. In an ideal world, I'd like to see clerics of each deity have their own spell list to play with that would reflect that deity's influence perfectly, as impractical as that would be.
With all of this said, though, I do think there is at least some in-game justification for all clerics using the divine spell list, and it's because their faith in their deity is what has them draw magic based on life and spiritual essence, i.e. divine magic, rather than magic of other traditions. Deities grant additional spells based on their domains, but otherwise gaining arcane spells from worshiping a deity of magic, like Isis or Nethys, is different from being a wizard who gains arcane magic through study and may still worship that same deity. Being a god of any kind seems to confer access to divine magic, or at least the ability to bestow it upon others, and divine magic itself is kind of its own thing separate from any one deity. Thus, even a cleric of a nature deity is going to be casting somewhat different spells from a druid, and on a mechanical level that helps differentiate those classes better too.

Tactical Drongo |

You look at the Problem from a slightly wrong angle:
It's true gods give *clerics* only divine Access
But Not every priest of a deity is a cleric
The 'hippie follower' of gozreh is just as likely to be a Druid, a primal witch or some primal sorcerer
As far as we know even a bigger Part of bis followers might be druids
Nethys Grants his clerics Access to quite a Lot of arcane spells, but his clerics are all divine
Still, his followers surely have just ad many wizards and Lore bards who might even consider themselves clerics (since they are Part of the church)

Calliope5431 |
You look at the Problem from a slightly wrong angle:
It's true gods give *clerics* only divine AccessBut Not every priest of a deity is a cleric
The 'hippie follower' of gozreh is just as likely to be a Druid, a primal witch or some primal sorcerer
As far as we know even a bigger Part of bis followers might be druidsNethys Grants his clerics Access to quite a Lot of arcane spells, but his clerics are all divine
Still, his followers surely have just ad many wizards and Lore bards who might even consider themselves clerics (since they are Part of the church)
That's true, but it's also something of a tautology, in that it says "clerics get access to divine spells because clerics get access to divine spells".
A similar logic can be used to justify sorcerers always being arcane: "sorcerers should be arcane, since not everyone descended from an angel is a sorcerer, and 'spontaneous divine casters' is the niche of oracle rather than Sorcerer. Besides, bloodline spells exist and give you plenty of non arcane options to distinguish your sorcerer."
That's exactly how it worked in pathfinder 1e, and I don't see a great justification for why sorcerer now works this way but cleric does not.
It's also worth pointing out that not all gods live on other planes, but it's a prerequisite for the divine tradition:
"The power of the divine is steeped in faith, the unseen, and belief in a power source from beyond the Material Plane."
Gozreh lives on the material plane, the great old ones do as well, the elemental lords live in the elemental planes, etc.

Tactical Drongo |

I think it is still quite different in being a dedicated follower from a god and getting spells from that god versus 'my ancestor had snusnu with something weird and I got magic from it'
of course the players chooses what kind of stint that was, but supernatural powers from weird sources manifesting and dedicating yourself to a god and explicitly going the path that grants you access to a tiny sliver of that divine energy are certainly two pairs of shoes
pathfinder 1e reasoning is completely moot in pf2
and while I don't know where that quote comes from, the source of divine magic (for a cleric) is the god they are praying too first and foremost, not some nebulous power from beyond the material plane (even if that is where most of them live)
counterquote, from the intro text pf2 cleric core rulebook:
'Deities work their will upon the world in infinite ways, and you serve as one of their most stalwart mortal servants. Blessed with divine magic, you live the ideals of your faith, adorn yourself with the symbols of your church, and train diligently to wield your deity’s favored weapon. Your spells might protect and heal your allies, or they might punish foes and enemies of your faith, as your deity wills. Yours is a life of devotion, spreading the teachings of your faith through both word and deed.'
everything points to devotion to the deity and oneself being especially involved in the faith
and to come back to another example:
primal magic is often drawn from nature, with which gozreh is deeply linked
but the nature of the magic has its own 'flavor'
so if you are a cleric of gozreh, the powers you gain might as well manifest in a way that most would identify as druidic

Calliope5431 |
Oh my quote was from core actually.
My point regarding sorcerer is that your logic is the same reason why sorcerers didn't use subclass-specific spell traditions in 1e. But there's no reason that needs to be true in pathfinder 2e.
Are you saying that you should just use another class to model clerics that don't fit the light-and-holiness vibe?

Teridax |
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I can agree that the blurb describing divine magic isn't really accurate, precisely because it's possible to gain divine magic from a nature god who roams the Universe, and also because oracles don't need faith to wield divine magic from the grand cosmic equivalent of a multi-car pileup. With that said, I do think there are key differences between a cleric of Gozreh and a druid who also worships Gozreh that affect their magic.
Divine magic is generally about transcendence, and about channeling energies that pass through the Universe, but aren't necessarily tied to it. Divine casters wield power over life, which flows from Creation's Forge to the Void and through the Universe in-between, but also souls, who align themselves towards causes and ideals in mortal life, and then flow along the River of Souls to Pharasma's Boneyard where they are given their place in (usually) a plane in the Outer Sphere. A cleric of Gozreh gets their magic effectively by aligning their soul to that deity and receiving the energies that flow from them, a bit like tuning a radio. They do get primal spells as a result, because Gozreh is a deity of nature, but those spells come in the form of divine magic nonetheless.
By contrast, primal magic is about nature, and while primal casters also tend to cast magic by channeling a flow of energy, that energy is generally much more tangible due to its material connection. A primal caster doesn't need to worship Gozreh or any particular entity to be able to cast primal magic, they just need to connect with the world around them, the cycle of the land and living things, sometimes in a literal sense by planting their toes into the ground or breathing in the ambient air. Primal magic isn't really concerned with moral decisions and choices, so long as one follows the many natural cycles (and the rarer unnatural cycles) of the Universe and the inner planes.
So effectively, a cleric of Gozreh and a druid operate in fundamentally different ways, at least in the lore of PF2e. The cleric has to dedicate their faith to Gozreh, obey Gozreh's specific edicts and anathema, and align their entire moral consciousness around what Gozreh expects of them, and because Gozreh happens to be a nature deity, they get some primal spells in addition to their divine magic. By contrast, the druid merely has to be receptive to the energies around them to cast primal spells, and while that does require abiding by certain edicts and anathema, that doesn't necessarily require making specifically moral decisions either.

Sy Kerraduess |

Personally I think it would fit the class better to have every deity grant a full bloodline's worth of spells like Abraxas and Nethys do, rather than completely change the spell list.
That said if you did give clerics multiple spell lists like sorcerer/summoner/witch have, I don't think it would break balance in any way. I'm sure some people would complain that Cleric with Arcane list is just a better Wizard, but that says more about Wizard than it does about the homebrew.

Calliope5431 |
Personally I think it would fit the class better to have every deity grant a full bloodline's worth of spells like Abraxas and Nethys do, rather than completely change the spell list.
That said if you did give clerics multiple spell lists like sorcerer/summoner/witch have, I don't think it would break balance in any way. I'm sure some people would complain that Cleric with Arcane list is just a better Wizard, but that says more about Wizard than it does about the homebrew.
Yeah I can't see any list besides Arcane breaking anything, and I highly doubt Arcane would break things.
The other question would be how sanctification might work - it's probably best to just keep it exactly the way you'd expect - an occult cleric with a [sanctified] spell like spirit blast can still sanctify it just fine. They just have fewer such spells since obviously they're mainly on the divine list.