Reputation-Building Expectations and Naming Conventions (Spoilers)

[Tizzles]

I've been digging through the Season of Ghosts guide and first book and been attempting to set up an automated Google sheet for myself so I can track attitudes and reputation of the citizens of Willowshore as well as the factions. I was kind of amazed Foundry didn't have any good options for this already.

I started out with a simple list, but it wasn't a great way to track the actual events, so I've instead moved on to a second sheet which lists every single reputation gain or loss in the first book with location, encounter, triggers for the loss/gain, etc.

I think most of the direct story-driven gains (like rescuing people, etc.) are properly organized, but I'm running into just a little hiccup with the attitude-based reputation gains in the Location Support section of the first book at the bottom right of page 71.

The Location Support section says that as long as the party's reputation is below Admired with a faction, they can gain 1 point of reputation when a faction-associated site's NPC reaches the Helpful attitude for the first time.

There are some sites which have a faction trait, but do not have an NPC associated with them, specifically Silvermist Lodges and Jadeite Essentials. Technically Rebel's Leatherworks also doesn't have a site NPC, but they're unaffiliated.

Any ideas on how to handle those sites? I've considered a few different options that make sense, but thought I'd look for other opinions.

Silvermist Lodges could have Sumika as a representative, although it seems as though the book doesn't expect her to always be present based on quest information, specifically in "Consulting Silvermist" on page 50. I don't think we see very many (any?) NPCs related to the site.

In the Industrial District explanation on page 75, it suggests that Kawaka is a local guild leader, but the player's guide says specifically that he only operates the Cloud Paper House; I had a theory that maybe he was meant to also run the other two sites, but I think that's incorrect.

Are there any recommendations regarding how to handle those situations? I think Silvermist is a fairly simple fix, but I want to make sure about Jadeite Essentials because the solution has the possibility of removing a point or two from the reputation system. I'm not sure how tightly the numbers are calculated or how they'll be used in future books. If a few errant points could affect things later, I'd like to catch it now.

The second problem I've had, although somewhat minor, has been a few inconsistencies in naming conventions for characters, specifically how they relate to First/Last name orders. I've read some posts on the product threads with some tips for how to figure out which characters' names are in which order based on the convention of the culture being represented (and context from the NPC/site descriptions), but switching between those cultural conventions and English cultural conventions in a few places has made things a little difficult.

There are also a few spots where some of the tricks for figuring out the name order isn't straightforward, because it appears that sometimes the Japanese-styled names are First/Last, but others they're Last/First. In the Locations section, Nadoya Sanmi is First/Last, while most of the other Japanese-styled names are Last/First. At least, I assume this is true because the book refers to the Sanmi family on several occasions. This makes the case of Kazuma Oono, the site NPC for The Seven-Colored Songbird theatre on page 76, strange because his name only appears in two places, where it is his full name each time. Internet research suggests both Kazuma and Oono can be a last name, so I was just hoping to get confirmation one way or another.

The above consistency with Chinese-styled (I think) names falls into the same trap, I believe, with most of the names being Last/First, but occasionally it switching, such as in the case of De-Ge Hua, also from the Locations list on page 76. He is First/Last where most others are Last/First. Luckily, based on information from the other threads, a lot of these styles of first name have dashes inside them, which makes them easy to differentiate. Zheng Peng was the only one I had to check on. I think some of these are also Korean, but I know enough to know I don't know enough in this situation.

There are a few that I assume are from other cultures, like Rajul and Luda. I stuck those in the First/Last category, hoping that was correct. I think Kawaka Myna may be a play on words, although I think Kawaka is his first name based on usage, so I put it in the First/Last section. Feel free to correct me. It could be that they also sometimes refer to people by last name in text, in which case I'm doomed.

I've tried to compile a list of the character names, hoping anyone else who is confused by the conventions might find it useful. I'm also hoping these are correct. This is my first post on the Paizo forums, but I assume I can edit this later if necessary.

Last Name, First Name:
Heh Shan-Bao
"Granny" Hu Ban-niang
"Old" Matsuki Shou
Ha Hai-er
Yong Wu-Xiu
Kum Soon-chong
Kum Meng-sung
You So-Jin
Choe Chung-hu
Ouh Ba-Ming
Zheng Peng
Oono Kazuma
Sanmi Nadoya
Hua De-Ge
Luo Xi Yang
Yun Mong-Un
Huo Tian-Zhe
Igawa Jubei
Kim Gu-won

First Name, Last Name:
Kawaka Myna
Elizeth Candora
Damihansig Mababangloob
Rajul Samudra
Luda Bama

Unique:
Zataku
Mountain Summit Grass

I expect that more names will appear in the upcoming Season of Ghosts books, so I (or someone) could keep updating this list, if people find it useful.

I think it would also be really interesting to look at the roots/meanings of some of the names which are directly from a real-world language. I assume writers like to pick descriptive names. In looking up some of the names I've found a few that could be references, but I'm not sure. For example, Mo Douqiu looks a lot like Duo Qiu, a type of Chinese clay teapot, and you find him in a tea house. Even if it wasn't intended, I still think those are interesting points to track down.

Oh, also, is the Leshy site a Salon or a Saloon? The player's guide says both, but the first book says Salon only, so I assume it's referring to a Tea Salon in the context of a conversational salon. If so, I learned a new thing today.

[Coulibaly]

I'm going to start running the AP this week and I definitely feel you. I'm going to attempt to run a condensed version of the AP and I'm debating whether or not to track everything in detail or to focus on the two leaders. I figure that I'm going to make up some NPCs to head up the Silvermist Lodges and Jadeite Essentials. Overall this is going to be more bookkeeping than I'm used to doing as a GM on influence.

Also interesting point on the names. Thanks for separating those out!

[Tizzles]

If you think keeping track of things will be daunting, I threw an Introduction onto the front of the the reputation sheet I made and you can find it here.

It's obviously not spoiler free and it doesn't look pretty, but I only really cared that it fit my use case. I tried to keep it as IP-free as I could (relatively vague on some of the reputation triggers, so you'd still have to read the adventure to know what's going on), but if anyone thinks it's not vague enough I can alter it as needed.

You'll have to do File > Make a Copy and get a copy of the sheet to be able to edit it. It comes with some simple scripts as well. You can read those ahead of time if you want.

Hopefully that helps sort through some of the fog of the reputation/attitude system in the adventure path!

[Champ Kindly]

Tizzles wrote:

If you think keeping track of things will be daunting, I threw an Introduction onto the front of the the reputation sheet I made and you can find it here.

It's obviously not spoiler free and it doesn't look pretty, but I only really cared that it fit my use case. I tried to keep it as IP-free as I could (relatively vague on some of the reputation triggers, so you'd still have to read the adventure to know what's going on), but if anyone thinks it's not vague enough I can alter it as needed.

You'll have to do File > Make a Copy and get a copy of the sheet to be able to edit it. It comes with some simple scripts as well. You can read those ahead of time if you want.

Hopefully that helps sort through some of the fog of the reputation/attitude system in the adventure path!

This is amazing, will be a huge help to keep this campaign organised (not one of my strengths). Thank you!

[Tizzles]

Champ Kindly wrote:

This is amazing, will be a huge help to keep this campaign organised (not one of my strengths). Thank you!

No problem at all! I'll be starting my campaign on November 12 and I imagine it'll end up with some changes. If I make any, I can post about it here. As each book is released, I will likely add them to the sheet immediately, even if my party hasn't made it that far yet. I like to know what's coming up and sometimes these later adventure path books explain things which are useful in the earlier sections. Hopefully that will make it more usable for everyone.

[Coulibaly]

Tizzles, you're the MVP! Thanks a lot for this.

[SuzuPazuzu]

I've been ruminating on the naming conventions in this AP. Drawing from real-life languages and societies leads to the vast majority of names having a fairly obvious origin.

For the most part, I think you've come up with a fairly correct list. It's a little frustrating reading the AP, because the name order is inconsistent in several cases. The majority of names in the AP that are definitely, or very likely, inspired by surname-first names are surname-first (Chinese, Japanese, Korean and such,) while the majority of names definitely, or very likely, inspired by surname-last names are surname-last (Tagalog, English, Hindi.)

However, there are exceptions that throw a wrench into things. Kazuma Oono (as he is presented in the book) should expectedly be surname-first, but Oono is rarely a given name (and when it is, it is exclusively a feminine given name) whilst Kazuma, while still a possible surname, is a common masculine given name. But the book is otherise pretty much on top of this for Japanese-inspired names. It's strange. I think it's safe to declare that one as Oono Kazuma (surname-first.)

The other exception is Yuli and Nadoya Sanmi. I assume you've interpreted these as Japanese names but, while Sanmi is a rare—but extant—japanese surname, both Yuli and Nadoya are not Japanese given names. If we assume the surname-last order wasn't a mistake here, I'm leaning on these two being Indonesian-inspired; both Yuli and Nadya are feminine given names within Indonesia. However, trying to find evidence for Sanmi led nowhere. Imperfect solution.

Aside from these two exceptions, I'm inclined to believe you've interpreted the rest correctly. They otherwise follow expected name orders (with Chinese and Korean names tending to have, more often than not, a monosyllabic surname and a mono-or-disyllabic given name.) It'd be nice to have a little more insight on the specific inspiration for each of these names, but hey, it *mostly* lines up without issue.

[Dancing Wind]

Here is James Jacobs explanation

James Jacobs wrote:

The general custom in Tian-Xia is generally family name first, given name last, but there's a few cases (particularly with characters who aren't originally from Tian-Xia) where that's not the case. Sometimes NPCs will have names are similar or the same as real world names. Other times they'll have nonsense word names, and sometimes a mix of the both. I largely left the bulk of the naming conventions to the individual authors and then had some great help from the editors in all of this as well.

[Sen H.H.S.]

Since it's been asked for a few times, I'll clarify the language roots and inspiration of the names. I can't, however, give you the characters/kanji/hanja for each right now, either because I've lost my notes, can't remember the tone, or because it might potentially spoil story elements. Probably best for us to return to that topic after all four books are out...

Chinese
Heh Shan-Bao
"Granny" Hu Ban-niang
Ha Hai-er
Yong Wu-Xiu
Zheng Peng
Hua De-Ge
Luo Xi Yang
Huo Tian-Zhe

Korean
Kum Soon-chong
Kum Meng-sung
You So-Jin
Choe Chung-hu
Kim Gu-won
Yun Mong-Un: I actually don't remember for certain if Mong-un's name is Korean, but from the romanization, it's most likely Korean than not. She could also be a case of surname from one language, first name from another. (See Old Matsuki below.)

Japanese
Oono Kazuma: Yes, Kazuma is meant to be the given name here.
Igawa Jubei

Special Cases
"Old" Matsuki Shou: Shou can actually be Chinese, Japanese, or Korean. Some folks do have surnames from one origin and first name from another language, after all...
Ouh Ba-Ming: Ouh is a fictitious last name that can be derived from a Chinese, Japanese, or Korean inspiration. Ba-Ming is Chinese inspired.
Sanmi Nadoya: Sanmi is Chinese inspired, literally meaning "three rice". Nodoya is completely fictitious on account of the family being from Tianjing. Yuli is Chinese-based, iirc...
Kawaka Myna: Fictitious. Based on naming scheme suggestions for tengu.
Elizeth Candora: Fictiotious. English/Romantic language inspired.
Damihansig Mababangloob: Partially fictitious. Doctor Dami's last name is Filipino, while his first name is a combination of two other Filipino first names.
Rajul Samudra: Hindu and Vedic.
Luda Bama: Fictitious.
Zataku: Ficticious, based on ysoki naming scheme
Mountain Summit Grass: Fictitious, based on leshy naming scheme.

On salon or saloon:

I originally thought of it as a hair salon where the tea leshies go to prune their hair. That might have changed...?

[Tizzles]

Sen H.H.S. wrote:

Since it's been asked for a few times, I'll clarify the language roots and inspiration of the names.

This is excellent! Thank you so much! I am definitely nowhere near an expert on these names, but I'd like things to be as authentic as possible. This certainly helps me frame things appropriately.

For anyone using my reputation sheet, I'll add these notes as categories in the future, just for the sake of completeness. I'm starting my campaign today, so the changes may appear sooner than later if I need to update anything once the game starts.

As for the salon:

There hasn't been much mention of the style of the salon, aside from the leshies in the area decided to start a tea farm and serve tea there. I think having them show up for a pruning, like a hair salon, and then use the pruned leaves for tea is actually kind of a cute idea! If that was included in the book or player's guide, maybe I missed it.

[SuzuPazuzu]

Sen H.H.S. wrote:

Since it's been asked for a few times, I'll clarify the language roots and inspiration of the names.

Oh, excellent. This lines up perfectly with what I'd expected, and clears up the confusion I had over the Sanmi family. Admittedly, the Sanmi family was especially confusing because a surname-last order for Yuli in the same sentence where a surname-first order was used for Lelong.

I had assumed that "Ouh" in Ouh Ba-ming was just a unique romanisation of the Korean surname "O".

Much appreciated clarification though, this helps a lot.

[MechaMaya]

Tizzles wrote:

If you think keeping track of things will be daunting, I threw an Introduction onto the front of the the reputation sheet I made and you can find it here.

It's obviously not spoiler free and it doesn't look pretty, but I only really cared that it fit my use case. I tried to keep it as IP-free as I could (relatively vague on some of the reputation triggers, so you'd still have to read the adventure to know what's going on), but if anyone thinks it's not vague enough I can alter it as needed.

You'll have to do File > Make a Copy and get a copy of the sheet to be able to edit it. It comes with some simple scripts as well. You can read those ahead of time if you want.

Hopefully that helps sort through some of the fog of the reputation/attitude system in the adventure path!

I hope you don't mind, but I saw your spreadsheet reputation tracker and I sorta expanded on it. Not only did I add reputation for book 2 (including the new victory points that need to be tracked) but I also incorporated XP tracking and updated some of the apps script functions to update dynamically when changes are made.

Updated Repuation and XP Tracker

It's a bit of a mess but I got a bit carried away with adding new things to track. Feel free to take bits of it as you please.

[Tizzles]

MechaMaya wrote:

I hope you don't mind, but I saw your spreadsheet reputation tracker and I sorta expanded on it.

Looking good!

I don't have an adventure path subscription, so I won't have access to the PDF until Wednesday sometime. I also didn't really have plans to add any XP-related tracking. It seems like your sheet is the better option for tracking everything, so feel free to continue updating it as you see fit. I'm sure the folks following the thread will appreciate it!

[AP Edgelord]

Where does Granny Hu live?!

Can't find her house anywhere (not the Trade Post W21)...

Help!

=)

[Sen H.H.S.]

I reckon any of the houses on the north shore of the river between W19 and W20 would work as her home.

Doubly so if that makes her the neighbor of a Northridge PC, meaning she might have babysat them at some point while they were growing up... 8D

[AP Edgelord]

Ok I need to print out a large version of the Willowshore map and get busy with my post-its and kitty string...

My PCs explored the tracks left by their kidnappers and headed west to the Hinterlands instead of immediately east back to Willowshore, and now seek Granny Hu's house having decided she is the leader for the job. Gunna leave a note on her door "meet at the defended Trade Post, all welcome" or somesuch.

Thank you!

[Dogan.]

These are awesome! Thank you both Tizzles and MechaMaya for sharing your hard work. :)

[schnoodle]

Sen H.H.S. wrote:

Since it's been asked for a few times, I'll clarify the language roots and inspiration of the names. I can't, however, give you the characters/kanji/hanja for each right now, either because I've lost my notes, can't remember the tone, or because it might potentially spoil story elements. Probably best for us to return to that topic after all four books are out...

[snip]

Is there any chance of revisiting tone for stuff now that they're all out? I feel a bit silly and guilty trying and failing to pronounce these names lol

I'm so excited to run this, my players equally so! Thank you for your work here, it's all such a cool story reading through it.

[Sen H.H.S.]

schnoodle wrote:

Is there any chance of revisiting tone for stuff now that they're all out? I feel a bit silly and guilty trying and failing to pronounce these names lol

Okay, so here's how I've been pronouncing the Chinese-inspired names at my table. I know there are other mandarin speakers out there that have picked something different and ended up with some wonderfully appropriate interpretations, so this is still just a guide. I'm using the numbering system for clarity, as special letters don't always show up on people's operating systems.

Heh2 Shan4 Bao3
"Granny" Hu2 Ban3 niang2
Ha1 Hai3 er2
Yong3 Wu2 Xiu4
Zheng4 Peng2
Hua1 De2 Ge1
Luo4 Xi1 Yang2 (Luo4 Xi3 Yang2 is also possible)
Huo3 Tian1 Zhe1

Ou1 Ba1 Ming4
Yu4 li3

Here is a link to help people know how to pronounce the tones: https://www.thoughtco.com/four-tones-of-mandarin-2279480

If there are characters from book 2~4 that people would like to discuss, let me know! I'll give it my best educated guess.

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

Tizzles and MechaMaya,

Thank you for a terrific resource for the tracking of NPCs!

Sen thank you for the pronunciation guide!

Hmm

[FlurryofBlunders]

Oh wow, this is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. I was just saying the other day that I'd love to see the names in the original scripts for linguistics nerds like me.

Admittedly, I would've liked to see some more Cantonese sprinkled in there as well...

[mcook7823]

Sen H.H.S. wrote:

Since it's been asked for a few times, I'll clarify the language roots and inspiration of the names. I can't, however, give you the characters/kanji/hanja for each right now, either because I've lost my notes, can't remember the tone, or because it might potentially spoil story elements. Probably best for us to return to that topic after all four books are out...

Chinese
Heh Shan-Bao
"Granny" Hu Ban-niang
Ha Hai-er
Yong Wu-Xiu
Zheng Peng
Hua De-Ge
Luo Xi Yang
Huo Tian-Zhe

Korean
Kum Soon-chong
Kum Meng-sung
You So-Jin
Choe Chung-hu
Kim Gu-won
Yun Mong-Un: I actually don't remember for certain if Mong-un's name is Korean, but from the romanization, it's most likely Korean than not. She could also be a case of surname from one language, first name from another. (See Old Matsuki below.)

Japanese
Oono Kazuma: Yes, Kazuma is meant to be the given name here.
Igawa Jubei

Special Cases
"Old" Matsuki Shou: Shou can actually be Chinese, Japanese, or Korean. Some folks do have surnames from one origin and first name from another language, after all...
Ouh Ba-Ming: Ouh is a fictitious last name that can be derived from a Chinese, Japanese, or Korean inspiration. Ba-Ming is Chinese inspired.
Sanmi Nadoya: Sanmi is Chinese inspired, literally meaning "three rice". Nodoya is completely fictitious on account of the family being from Tianjing. Yuli is Chinese-based, iirc...
Kawaka Myna: Fictitious. Based on naming scheme suggestions for tengu.
Elizeth Candora: Fictiotious. English/Romantic language inspired.
Damihansig Mababangloob: Partially fictitious. Doctor Dami's last name is Filipino, while his first name is a combination of two other Filipino first names.
Rajul Samudra: Hindu and Vedic.
Luda Bama: Fictitious.
Zataku: Ficticious, based on ysoki naming scheme
Mountain Summit Grass: Fictitious, based on leshy naming scheme.

** spoiler omitted **...

if I can necro this thread because I found reference to it on reddit, I have a question. Do you have any general suggested references for pronunciation guides, or maybe one that is applicable to the host of characters in Willowshore? I find that the Tian Xia setting guide has some helpers, but many of them are in conflict when it comes to this module because you don't know where the characters are from. Any suggestions? Outside of this character list, if there are some hard generalized rules that cover a lot of cases, that would be very helpful. For example, Ceiba-Duyue exchange; send help.