Do melee occultist keep up in the damage department?


Advice


So, I'm thinking an Occultist, Probably Trappings of the Warrior, Longsword and Shield (My GM ruled you need the shield equipped so no greatsword that I so often see recommended)

I'm wondering if this can keep up with other martials in the damage department, Or if it starts falling behind too much?

I'm thinking cast Lead Blades before the fight if time is given to buff up pre-battle, If fighting a boss throw Bane on the weapon from Legacy Weapon...


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Absolutely 100% yes, Occultists keep up with damage.

So first things first, by RAW you do Not have to equip your shield to benefit from Trappings, but I think it's a totally reasonable stance to say you do. It's still completely fine for damage and it's probably RAI, so I'm not gonna tell you to argue with your GM.

So for damage, you'll probaboy struggle a bit for the first few levels, but once you get a +1 weapon (or get to level 6) you can use Legacy Weapon to make your weapon a +1 BANE weapon. This adds +2 to hit and damage and +2d6 bonus damage vs any one creature type for 1 minute, and will absolutely be the most powerful buff you can give yourself. Between this and the Physical Enhancement Resonant power you'll essentially be getting +5 to hit and 2d6+5 bonus damage to every attack by level 6 for the cost of a standard action. If your GM finds this too cheesy, maybe ask about using the RUNEFORGED property instead of Bane. It essentially gives the same bonus as Bane against themed enemies, but it doesn't quite cover all enemy types and costs a +2 enhancement bonus instead of +1.

Speaking of standard action buffs, the Occultist has a lot of them and they can quickly clog up your action economy. Personally I think Lead Blades is a waste of time. It's ~+2.5 damage, which is just not impactful compared to Legacy weapon, it lasts for minutes per level, but unless you get advanced warning of your combat that's still usually an in-combat spell and it takes up a spellslot that could be used for something else. If you want to deal damage in combat you have to actually spend actions doing damage, so my recommendation is to have 1 buff (almost always Legacy Weapon) and then start swinging. Spending more time buffing is reducing your overall damage output. If you really want more damage from your Longsword, a potion of Enlarge Person is only 50gp, and gives you the same damage dice upgrade, plus 1 damage from the increased STR, plus reach. I recommend a potion rather than a wand or spell because Enlarge Person has a 1-round casting time (you start casting now and the effect happens at the beginning of your next turn) which means it can easily be interrupted, but Potions ignore casting time so it's a move+standard and you're instantly big.

Speaking of Reach, since the Occultist has a whole bunch of standard action buffs and Legacy weapon gives a damage bonus that isn't multiplied on a crit (the +2d6 damage from Bane) I recommend a reach weapon, and Combat Reflexes if you can fit it in (12 DEX is enough to make Combat Reflexes worthwhile). This lets you attack on other people's turn, increasing the number of extra +2d6s you get to add and allowing you to take non-attack actions if you want to. Also as a general rule denying space is good in PF. You can even do this with Trappings if you really want to by taking the SHIELD BRACE feat (a Buckler or Darkwood shield has 0 ACP).

Speaking of Trappings, you don't need it. Now that doesn't mean you shouldn't take it, or even that it isn't good, but you absolutely 100% deal enough damage without it. Think about our 6th level Occultist from earlier who is already getting +5 to hit and 2d6+5 damage from their Transmutation Implement. Well they'd be getting a whopping +2 to hit from Trappings. That's not quite true, they'd also be getting their iterative attack 2 levels earlier, and they'd get scaling bonuses from feats like Power Attack earlier as well (Power Attack often lowers your damage as an Occultist since you have such high damage bonuses, the penalty to hit is more impactful than the bonus damage even with a 2 handed weapon, check whether it's right for you) but even so the bonuses from your Transmutation Implement are having a more significant effect on your damage output than the bonus from Trappings. If you have a reach weapon then the iteratives aren't even adding that much since you're probably getting 2+ attacks at full BAB every round anyway. Now as I said that doesn't mean Trappings is bad - it's quite powerful even - but it comes at a cost, and that cost is that you lose access to 1 Implement. I actually think Trappings is a perfectly fine Panoply to take since there are often multiple Abjuration/Transmutation spells you might want to take, but if there is another Implement you want instead you shouldn't feel like you need Trappings to be competetive. If you Do take Trappings, take it at level 6 when you get the extra attack, it's totally not worth it for +1 to hit at level 2.

So where does all that leave us? I recommend taking a reach weapon (but you don't have to), focus on 1 standard action buff per combat, you can take Trappings if you want but don't need it, and pretty much no matter how you build around that you'll be fine for damage.

Also take a look at archetypes. My Occultist is a Haunt Collector, which is good for those Implements with bad Resonant powers. There are other good ones depending what you want, it's worth checking them out.


Thank you for the detailed post @MrCharisma ! Seems like an Occultist can do quite well without Trappings then, It seems like such a versatile class with many build options.

For this idea I was looking at occultist because it seems like they can be a decent martial while still having plenty of other things they can do, With their spells and powers and skills and stuff. I quite like the 6th tier casters. :)


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You can always use a 2 handed weapon with a buckler, you just take a -1 penalty to hit and lose your shield bonus for the round which you wouldn’t have anyway if you were going with a 2-hander from the start. So if ur fine with a -1 to hit go ahead and take a greatsword.


Another option is Battle Host Occultist. Your chosen weapon would act as your implement for all your focus abilities so you wouldn’t need a shield at all. Since Battle Host has heavy Armor proficiency it will make up for the loss of the shield a bit.


Trokarr wrote:
Another option is Battle Host Occultist.

I'm not a a fan of Battle Host. It loses 2 Implements, and early ones at that. Implements give you passive abilities, active abilities and spells-known, so losing one is bad, but losing 2 before level 10 is way too much of a penalty for the bonuses you get. Also it isn't elligable for Panoplies if that's a problem.


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Merellin wrote:

Thank you for the detailed post @MrCharisma ! Seems like an Occultist can do quite well without Trappings then, It seems like such a versatile class with many build options.

For this idea I was looking at occultist because it seems like they can be a decent martial while still having plenty of other things they can do, With their spells and powers and skills and stuff. I quite like the 6th tier casters. :)

100%

My favourite class since second edition DnD has been the Paladin. It' a Martial class with some magic and some flavour to help you roleplay, so it's stayed my favourite through multiple editions. The Magus and Alchemist almost supplanted the Paladin but didn't quite take the top spot, but the Occultist managed it. It's my favourite class in so many ways, and yes it fits your description perfectly.

What I will say is that if you want to be a Martial character you need a Transmutation Implement, you'd be giving up too kuch otherwise (of course you can ignore Transmutation if you're playing more of a caster). I also advise getting a defensive Implement fairly early if you want to be on the front-line. Abjuration is the obvious choice but Divination or Illusion can do the job, I'm sure there are some other Implements that can combine to give you enough defence to get by. Other than that it's basically up to you. I've absolutely loved the Conjuration implement for the movement abilities and utility of the spells, and Divination is great (though keeping both Transmutation and Divination resonant powers fully powered is hard to do), but they're all good depending on the campaign and your preferences.

I read a guide to Reach Clerics just before I read the Occultist, and I think everything in that guide applies to the Occultist as well as the Cleric. There are so many standard action spells and abilities, and having the ability to attack enemies on their own turn really lets you use both the martial and caster sides of the class in a way that would be difficult otherwise.


Another option is to go with a ranged build. With the Evocation school you could have a Conducive weapon and use it to apply Energy Ray for bonus damage. The Silksworn archetype counts as an arcane caster so you could use Arcane Strike. This opens up a firearms build with Spell Cartridges to make ur guns deal force damage and avoid having to reload ur gun at all. By 11th lvl u could have Infused Spell Cartridges and deliver an Intensified Shocking Grasp via ur gun also.


Merellin wrote:
I'm wondering if this can keep up with other martials in the damage department, Or if it starts falling behind too much?

Depends on the martials (and other gishs!), and on the campign. If your party members are a Barbarian, an unMonk, and a Weretouched Shifter, and the GM loves dropping enemies ca. 30ft away out of nowhere, an Occultist will absolutely fall behind hard. Until the opponent is unreachable, and you can activate your Mind Over Gravity ability, while the others are left with throwing sticks at the target.

Melee builds without a move-and-full-attack option cannot compete with melee builds that have those. That's just how the game works. Occultist does not have such an option.
Occultist is extremely reliant on standard action activated self-buffs. In some games, you use them when you enter a dungeon (or other area of obvious danger), and have them active when combat starts. In other games, you never know when a fight will happen. Occultist is great in the former, but weak in the latter.

If you can pre-buff at least some of the time, and don't have to compete with high octane pounce builds, an Occultist will do fine. In games where versatility is imporant (e.g. with plenty of flying or invisible enemies, or various non-comabt challenges), an Occultist will likely shine brightly.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

For a melee occultist, Trappings of the Warrior works pretty well with keeping the damage fairly close to most martials. As far as implement powers go, Size Alteration is probably a better choice after a couple levels than taking enlarge as one of your spells and Quickness is definitely an implement power to consider (since it's +2 on AC and Ref saves) once you qualify.

You may want to look at Vital Strike for when you need to move and attack, even though it's not as good as options that let you move and full-attack.

For a ranged occultist, Trappings of the Warrior with bow and buckler also works well. In this case, use the Physical Enhancement resonant power from Transmutation to boost Dex.

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