Anathema : why not ?

[The Raven Black]

There is no mention of Anathema in the playtest document.

Yet, I feel they should be there.

Animist is supposed to compare to Cleric, who does have anathema. Why doesn't Animist ?

I could see each Apparition having its own anathema.

Exemplar can become Sanctified and Holy/Unholy with no anathema.

Nothing prevents me from playing a cruel and deeply evil Exemplar who is Holy.

Clerics and Champions, who will also get access to Sanctification and Holy/Unholy, have their anathema to keep them in line. Why is the Exemplar free from this ?

How do other people feel about this ?

[Tactical Drongo]

I'll take a wild guess at this

animist channels spirits, spirits who must agree with them in the first place to be channeled
while they are able to be sorted in archetypes, every spirit you channel will be to a degree in line in your worldview

also from a gamplay point of view anathema would be most likely tied to the spirits themselves and it would really impede your (in the playtest rather limited) freedom of choice on spirity to have possibly conflicting anathema

for exemplar it feels even easier to me

they got a spark of divinity themselves, they are their own source of their power
there is no outside source that would give them an anathema

it would rather make sense to restrict the feat to take holy/unholy (I am reasonably sure if alignment wasnt dead it would be linked to that) or have some ingrained spiritual feedback loop

but in the end it checks out (for me at least)
and I am sure it would not need long for people to come up with example of evil 'holy' people

[The Raven Black]

I wonder if the Holy / Unholy traits carry anathema with them for characters who gain them.

[YuriP]

Thus, the fact that you are a spellcaster who uses Wiz does not necessarily imply that you must have an anathema like the cleric and the druid do. The anathema has mechanical and contextual reasons for existing usually linked to how its powers are granted to you.

That said, it makes sense from the perspective of apparitions that they require anathema. After all, each of them has their own nature and interests. The danger is that it becomes a festival of extremely restricted options when you reach high levels and accumulate a good number of apparitions, so the designer needs to be very cautious and take it easy with the anathemas and try to prevent anathemas from different appearances from antagonizing each other.

Another point is that an anathema needs compensation. This becomes very clear when you read the barbarian's instincts where all the instincts that have anathemas are more powerful than the one that doesn't have them. So it is necessary to ensure that apparitions give clear advantages in power than, for example, a wizard's curriculum/schools or a sorcerer's lineage.

But interestingly speaking, many Vessel Spells such as Earth's Bile and Garden of Healing are already considered by many to more powerful than focus spells from other classes, perhaps an anathema helps justify that they remain potent in the final version without needing large nerfs as many people have already asked for.

[The Raven Black]

The Raven Black wrote:

I wonder if the Holy / Unholy traits carry anathema with them for characters who gain them.

Found it. The description of the traits in the Remastered Core Preview is not an anathema but it's a good basis for GM adjudication.

I hope we will have clear rules for when a PC might lose the Holy/Unholy trait though.

[John R.]

I wouldn't mind an anathema mechanic on Animist to balance for power. It could easily work the same way as the taboo mechanic on the PF1 Medium. Maybe disperse an apparition if its taboo is broken and the duration of dispersion depends in how egregious the taboo violation was.

[Unicore]

I would like spirits to have either edicts or anathema just as a narrative element. I don't care if it factors into the power balance or not, and I am even fine with it being flexible, like each apparition having a choose 1 list, but it does feel weird for a class to be negotiating/communing with spirits and just always be able to get what they want out of any situation without any restriction.

[PossibleCabbage]

It feels reasonable for spirits to have something they'd prefer you not do while you're channeling them. What you do on your own time is your business, but the spirit might be unwilling to be party to some of it.

The question is though that whether this is something you can just RP and there don't need to be rules attached to it.

[Lanni Talimbi]

The Raven Black wrote:

Animist is supposed to compare to Cleric,

Huh? Where did you get that from?

Sure, there are several playtesters who have pointed out the mechanical comparisons between Animist and Cleric - because both have Divine tradition prepared spellcasting and know all of the common spells automatically.

The mechanics are almost as close to Divine tradition Witch. The only thing missing is knowing all of the common spells of the Divine tradition automatically.

But as far as flavor and lore - which is what would drive Anathema and Edicts - Animist is closer to Phantom Summoner, Psychic or even Thaumaturge.

At least as far as base class. If we include archetypes we have Exorcist, Ghost Hunter, Ghost Eater, Hallowed Necromancer, and Soul Warden.

Of all of those, the only one that would make sense to have Anathema and Edicts with is Soul Warden - and that is because of its close ties to Pharasma.

[Lanni Talimbi]

Now, that said - one of the things that I did have a lot of fun with as a Medium was the Taboo system. You could opt-in to getting basically an Edict/Anathema from the spirit in return for additional benefits.

[The Raven Black]

I think anathema for each Apparition would really fit the class. I feel it would translate well what I know of the RL practices that deal with worshipping spirits.

Having several anathema is already in the game, like a Druid with Order Explorer.

[The Raven Black]

Lanni Talimbi wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Animist is supposed to compare to Cleric,

Huh? Where did you get that from?

Sure, there are several playtesters who have pointed out the mechanical comparisons between Animist and Cleric - because both have Divine tradition prepared spellcasting and know all of the common spells automatically.

The mechanics are almost as close to Divine tradition Witch. The only thing missing is knowing all of the common spells of the Divine tradition automatically.

But as far as flavor and lore - which is what would drive Anathema and Edicts - Animist is closer to Phantom Summoner, Psychic or even Thaumaturge.

At least as far as base class. If we include archetypes we have Exorcist, Ghost Hunter, Ghost Eater, Hallowed Necromancer, and Soul Warden.

Of all of those, the only one that would make sense to have Anathema and Edicts with is Soul Warden - and that is because of its close ties to Pharasma.

The concept of the class is to be for spirits-centered religions what the Cleric is for deities-centered religions.

That is why the Animist gets Avatar just like the Cleric. So that the religions based on worship of spirits do not seem somehow lesser than those based on worship of deities.

[Lanni Talimbi]

John R. wrote:

I wouldn't mind an anathema mechanic on Animist to balance for power. It could easily work the same way as the taboo mechanic on the PF1 Medium. Maybe disperse an apparition if its taboo is broken and the duration of dispersion depends in how egregious the taboo violation was.

I don't think it should just be a punishment mechanic though. There should be some benefit to taking on the restrictions of an Edict/Anathema from the Apparition.

It should also be opt-in like the Taboo system was.

Maybe (if Channeler gets absorbed into the base class) that if you have taken on and kept the Edicts and Anathema requirements then you get the Channeler's current ability to switch to that Apparition for one action. If you break the Anathema, then you lose that Channeler ability for that Apparition for the rest of the day and you immediately have to choose a different Apparition as your primary apparition. You can switch that Apparition to primary again, but only for an hour at a time.

[Lanni Talimbi]

The Raven Black wrote:

The concept of the class is to be for spirits-centered religions what the Cleric is for deities-centered religions.

I see that as one possible interpretation and flavor of the characters made from the class.

I don't think that should be mechanically enforced as the only possible interpretation and flavor that all characters made from the class need to follow.

Just like Druid being a worshiper of nature is one possible interpretation - and is the interpretation that was the foundation of the class to begin with. But that isn't the only possible interpretation of the class that is currently possible.

[Unicore]

That is why I think each apparition having a list of 3 or 4 possible anathema, and you only have to pick one for this particular spirit could be a fun, more narratively rich, but not limiting scope for it.

[The Raven Black]

Lanni Talimbi wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

The concept of the class is to be for spirits-centered religions what the Cleric is for deities-centered religions.

I see that as one possible interpretation and flavor of the characters made from the class.

I don't think that should be mechanically enforced as the only possible interpretation and flavor that all characters made from the class need to follow.

Just like Druid being a worshiper of nature is one possible interpretation - and is the interpretation that was the foundation of the class to begin with. But that isn't the only possible interpretation of the class that is currently possible.

I see what you mean. It's a good point. But in whatever shape (and I like the idea you put above), I think anathema should have a place in the class.

[Solarsyphon]

The Raven Black wrote:

Nothing prevents me from playing a cruel and deeply evil Exemplar who is Holy.

Seems about right to me...

I just don't have a strong association between holy and good.

The Raven Black wrote:

I could see each Apparition having its own anathema.

I like the idea of using apparitions narratively to give them character and the class has enough flexibility that losing access to an apparition due to anathema is not a big issue. This is especially true if more spirits are to come and you as a dm are happy to replace a spirit with another when one leaves due to circumstance. In that way they probably make allot of sense to have an anathema.

However, it's possible they may be going with the idea of the spirits having personalities instead. For example the steward of stone and fire is "quick to anger and slow to forget" so may not want to help you protect some one who has wronged you or it in the past.

The personality lines along with something in the class description that says something like " an apparition may choose not to help you if what you are doing conflicts with their personality and apparitions you have not prepared may rush to your aid if it suits their interest" would work pretty well.

[The Raven Black]

Solarsyphon wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Nothing prevents me from playing a cruel and deeply evil Exemplar who is Holy.

Seems about right to me...

I just don't have a strong association between holy and good.

Actually the rules do and I was wrong about the evil and Holy Exemplar :

"The holy trait indicates a powerful devotion to altruism, helping others, and battling against unholy forces like fiends and undead. The unholy trait, in turn, shows devotion to victimizing others, inflicting harm, and battling celestial powers."

(From the Remaster Core Preview).

[The-Magic-Sword]

You know, I realize its a side-track, but I like that definition of Holy and Unholy-- its very easy for me to mentally parse antiheroes who emphasize hurting people who deserve it, and heroic characters who hurt people to protect other people, it gives me a firm rationale that doesn't over-impose on character motivations, as you can do the same thing for different reasons.

[Themetricsystem]

Anathema serves no function with these other than to corner flavor to specific mechanical interactions. These aren't powers that are fueled by any sort of actual intelligent or sapient creatures at all but instead by what is effectively the fantasy equivalent of universal background raditaion in two forms, one being "soul stuff reside" and the other being "godliness residue" and neither of these things has any actual INTENT or direction associated with them, they sort of just exist.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

Apparitions seem to have more overt intent than any barbarian instinct or druid circle, but maybe that's just me. Apparition anathema could be flavourful but I'm not committed for or against it. Depending on how much flexibility they want folk to have personalizing their own apparitions (the gardens app from a Druid grove vs. one from a greenhouse vs. the warden of a secluded meadow, for eg) it might be difficult or limiting to say every clown apparition always wants this same thing, without making that thing overly broad.