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First, some build details:
Playing at level 5.
Sage subclass (someone has to do it, right).
Some relevant feats: Conceal Spell, Divert Control, Shield Block, Quick Identification, Gnome Weapon Familiarity.
Today's Apparition and Spell preparation selections:
Innate:
C: Slashing Gust
Animist spells
C: Guidance, Light
1: Command, Fear
2: Dancing Shield, Heal
3: Sound Burst
Apparitions
Imposter in Hidden Places (primary)
Custodian of Groves and Gardens
Witness to Ancient Battles
Takeaways from build process:
I do not get very many cantrips. Two divine cantrips to be freely chosen. So it is a hard decision to choose between buff cantrips like Guidance, Utility cantrips like Light, Healing cantrips like Stabilize, and damage cantrips like Divine Lance. And the Apparitions don't always help much either. Today I got Shield, Telekinetic Hand, and Tangle Vine. Shield is kinda useful - if I didn't spend a general feat on Shield Block. The other two I don't expect to find much use for. This is such a big problem that I picked up a freely chosen primal cantrip from an Ancestry feat so that I would always have a damage dealing cantrip available.
Animist spell slots and Apparition Repertoire also has pretty much the same thing. Freely chosen Divine spells - which is nice. But limited spell slots. It makes for hard decisions on what to focus on - Healing, buffs, debuffs, damage... you can't do it all. And the Apparition Repertoire doesn't always help. We are at level 5 and fully equipped. What exactly am I going to do with Runic Weapon? How about Ghostly Weapon? Wall of Shrubs? Some others may or may not be useful depending on what we encounter during the day. Safe Passage, Veil of Privacy, Enlarge, Invisibility. But even with those, the spell slots available to cast them with are very limited. I couldn't cast Invisibility more than twice during the entire day, for example. And one of those castings would be a 'heightened with no additional effect' by using my one 3rd rank spell slot - which means, oh darn I can't cast Ghostly Weapon any more today.
Encounter 1: general role-play.
The party came into town with an assignment to check in with the local town leader and ask for more details on what the problem is. We arrive and find that the leader's home is currently being repaired. Apparently someone or something replaced the door to their secure accounting room with a brick wall. Workers had to break through the wall in order to access the room again - at which point they found that nothing had been taken.
Takeaways:
Having a bunch of lore skills available is actually really nice. I ended up being able to use a couple of them during the poking around at the 'crime scene' and the approach through the town - Farming and Herbalism lore to check out the town itself, and Underworld lore to check into ideas of why someone would want to do this type of non-crime.
It was also amusing to stealth cast Telekinetic Hand to make myself seem spookier.
Encounter 2: first combat.
I am currently configured with Imposter in Hidden Places primary, which means Discomfiting Whispers as focus spell available. Inaccessible until after the battle is Garden of Healing and Embodiment of Battle.
So with Discomfiting Whispers, my combat strategy was to grab my shield and Gnome hammer and fight from melee range using my 5 foot emanation spell to debuff the enemies I am fighting.
We stumbled unexpectedly across some bandits that were raiding an abandoned shrine. There was an archer, a hellhound, a spellcaster of some sort, and one other guy that didn't really end up doing much.
This was primarily a ranged combat. We had an archer above us on a cliff that we either had to use ranged attacks to target, climb the cliff face, or move quite a ways to get to a ladder to climb up.
So my combat strategy pretty much failed. I couldn't reach the archer. Or the spellcaster. One of our party members used two stride actions to get to a position with cover that was closer to the enemies. Then the hellhound spent two actions on stride to get to that ally and attack once. For my first action I grabbed my hammer and shield, and moved a bit closer. For my second round though, I still had to use two stride actions to get into melee range with the hellhound and only barely made it. I didn't get to choose an optimal position and had only one action left anyway. So Strike it is. But even on third round when I have the actions available, I still can't use my focus spell without hitting the one enemy and two of my own allies with a Misfortune effect.
The Kineticist did most of the work taking out the archer on the cliff. Launching sharpened tree branches worked rather well. The Magus first drove away the hellhound into retreating, then one-shot the other random bandit with a spellstrike crit.
Takeaways
One, Animist isn't a gish. With a 16 strength, I am rolling Strike attack rolls at 3 points lower than the magus and rogue. Even the +1 bonus from Embodiment of Battle isn't going to make up the difference for that.
So I am not entirely sure what Embodiment of Battle is used for. It doesn't seem powerful enough to be worth the action cost of casting, much less sustaining. Even with it, I am still not going to be hanging with the martials.
Discomfiting Whispers I still think is really cool to use. It just wasn't suited for this ranged combat encounter. This would have worked a lot better in a dungeon crawl scenario where we already have our weapons readied and the enemies close in on us. Then I would have more actions to get into good positions where I can let loose with the spell. Also, it is probably best when paired with melee or short range spells such as Ignition, Needle Darts, or Chill Touch. The shield is maybe a good choice for protection, but it does cost another action to Raise Shield. Raise Shield, Sustain Discomfiting Whispers, and I only have one action left - which isn't enough to cast a cantrip with.
Impressions so far:
Animist is like being a prepared spellcaster for most of your build - not just your spell slots.
It is like the difference between Wizard and Sorcerer. Sorcerer has more spellcasting power. They have limited spell choices that they have to stick with, but as long as they can find one spell to use, they can cast it enough times to be effective for an encounter. Wizard has more flexible options, but they have to guess right. If they fill their spell slots with spells that don't end up being relevant, then they aren't relevant in the encounters. If they do guess right, then they are going to be quite effective. And since they have more options, then if both the Sorcerer and Wizard know what is coming up, the Wizard can prepare for it more effectively than the Sorcerer can.
Animist seems to work the same way. If I know what to prepare for, then I can prepare for it quite effectively. Very flexible - like a Wizard. But I can even get things like Lore skills and eventually feats that can be switched in and out as part of that preparation.
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Also regarding build process. It kinda feels bad that I am level 5 and still don't have even an option of any Wandering feats. I may not even pick them - I like stealth casting, but it would be really nice to have the option of a few to opt in to at earlier levels.
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A Second combat
Still at level 5, same as last time. However, I am built to actually switch around what Apparitions I am partnered with on a regular basis.
Also, this time we knew what we were getting into and had plenty of time to prepare for it. Instead of being surprised.
Two Wights, a weak Ghost Commoner, and a Muse Phantom.
I also sampled the Earth's Bile cheese. With the full cheese ruling that I can cast it multiple times on the same area and have all of them affect everyone in the area multiple times per round.
So round 1 of the combat, I nuked the area with both of the Wights. They were both in single digit HP afterwards.
I also caught the Muse Phantom in the area, but it was remarkably ineffective against the Resist All 5 that it has. Earth's Bile has two different damage types and is hitting three times. So instead of one big damage pile that would only be resisted once, it is six different damage piles of 2d4 each. The only reason that the spell did any damage to the phantom at all was because it nat-1'd one of the three save rolls. So it only took chip damage.
But in total, doing almost 90 HP of damage in one round and being able to do it again the next round seems a bit much.
Not that it was worth doing again the next round since the two ghosts were practically immune to the spell and the two wights were practically dead.
Anyway...
I also got to try out Apparition's Possession. The Muse Phantom tried to possess me. I succeeded at the save.
If you fail the save, you get a new Save each round and if you critically succeed at the save, you can expel the possessing creature.
But if you succeed at the initial save, then you have a passenger and no save each round to even try to remove it.
After I turned on Apparition's Possession, the Muse Phantom elected to voluntarily dismiss the Possession effect. That was mostly done to resolve any rules ambiguity. But it also meant that the Muse Phantom at least had a chance to continue to influence the outcome of the battle. Otherwise it would be fighting all of us alone 1d4 hours later.
Sustaining one copy of Earth's Bile on one of the Wights ended that one. I couldn't hit the other Wight because of positioning. There was an animal companion used for flanking that was in the way. I would have had to hit either the bird or a different ally - or both - in order to hit the Wight. So I tried sustaining the other copy that I had actions to sustain with against the ghost commoner. But it has the same resist all 5 that the muse phantom has and didn't nat-1 the save. So it took no damage.
The Kineticist ended the other Wight. Then the Magus spellstrike nearly ended the Muse Phantom. Finally I finished the fight with a 3-action rank 1 Heal that did the last couple of HP damage on the Muse Phantom and the Ghost Commoner decided to go back to sleep in the crypt since the annoying bard keeping it awake went away.
Takeaways
Earth's Bile cheese ruling definitely feels too powerful. Even if it is only at levels right after it gets heightened. The fight ended after 2 rounds. Mostly because the Wights got absolutely incinerated in round 1.
No, having resist all neuter the damage that Earth's Bile deals does not mean that the cheese ruling is balanced.
Animist definitely feels better as a spellcaster than as a Gish. Even at level 5 which is one of the worst levels for casting proficiency. The Magus could land a spellstrike with a roll of 4 as long as the Muse Phantom that they are targeting is off-guard. Their +15 attack bonus is 4 points better than the +11 Impulse attack bonus that the Kineticist has. Part of that is because ABP doesn't include anything for replacing the Gate Attenuator item bonus. But Animist wouldn't get anything to increase either their spell attack roll or spell DC, so I would be sitting at the same place as the Kineticist in either case - several points behind the martials at attack bonus.
Final Battle
So in the interests of playtesting more scenarios that actually come up in a game - we leveled up to level 7 and fully healed, but had to keep our daily resources from the previous battle as spent. Which for me wasn't much. I had used one Rank 1 spell. We did also have to keep the conditions - which for me meant staying at Drained 1.
The combat was advertised as being more difficult, but having the same theme as the last one - a battle against undead. This time inside the crypt that we had fought at the surface of previously. It ended up being against a vampire count, a vampire mastermind, three vampire spawn, two dire wolves, and two wolves.
Crowd control FTW.
Opening round of combat, the vampire count dominates the party's Magus, one of the dire wolves attacks, and I drop a Fire Wall across the room to split the enemies. The enemies are happy to sit on the other side of the fire wall with their fast healing and wait us out.
The Kineticist has to tank the hit from the dominated Magus (which is a bit questionable of a ruling that Dominate can cause an ally to attack their friends - but it is what the GM went with). So I used Aqueous Orb to shove the Magus into a corner where it couldn't reach any of us without diving into the Aqueous Orb or running through the Fire Wall twice - both of which are self-harm actions that were ruled couldn't be ordered to do.
⬜⬜⬜⬜Most enemies
⬛⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬛
⬛⭕⭕⭕⭕⭕⭕⭕⭕⭕⭕⭕⭕⭕⬛ Fire Wall
⬛⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜☢️☢️⬜⬜⬜⬜⬛
⬜⬛⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜☢️☢️⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬜⬛ Magus
⬜⬜⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛⬜⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛
⬜⬜⬛⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬛
⬜⬜⬛⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜⬛
⬜⬜⬜⬜Most of party
So the Kineticist and Psychic had a round or two of taking shots at the enemies while they figured out how to try to deal with the Fire Wall. The vampire mastermind tried for a couple of rounds to use Dispel Magic on it, but since it was a Rank 4 spell he had to succeed at the roll - and he failed both times.
But the Magus also failed to shake off the Dominate effect for multiple rounds. So he got to sit in time out.
Once two of the vampire spawn, one of the dire wolves, and one of the regular wolves were down, I got bored and charged through the Fire Wall myself - which I note does not have the ability to be Dispelled. Anyway, charged through the Fire Wall and lashed out at the vampire count with Searing Light - aided with the crit success of the Psychic with Swashbuckler archetype, All for One, and master proficiency in diplomacy. Which was enough to put the roll of 18 just barely into crit territory. So I vaporized the vampire count in one spell.
After that, it was a bit of a free-for-all. The Kineticist put up Protector Tree around me - which was a good thing since it soaked up the almost 30 HP of damage that the swarming wolves and vampire spawn ripped into me with. I would have survived the round either way, but it would have been close. The Magus shakes off the dominate finally and uses Dimensional Assault to cross the Fire Wall, the Psychic uses Amped Warp Step to cross, and the Kineticist uses Deflecting Wave as they cross to negate all of the fire damage.
Vampire mastermind tried to dominate me. I succeeded at the save and only got stunned 1.
However, Divert Control doesn't have a level limit. Even if it was ruled that the level 5 vampire is able to actually cast the rank 7 spell as a rank 7 spell instead of as a rank 3 spell, then I can still use Divert Control to ignore the effect for its duration.
I tried out Darkened Forest Form at that point. I had to move to somewhere with a bit of room though in order to have the space needed to take on a large size. So one action to move and one action to transform and one action spent on stunned 1.
And after that, I still had problems with the large size of the Animal Form spell getting in the way. Allies taking up all of the convenient locations to stand, terrain getting in the way, things like that. Typical Wild Shape problems. Hoping that gets fixed in the Remaster in general.
The combat stats of Darkened Forest Form worked quite nicely though. I was rolling Strike attacks with the same bonus as the Magus. And hitting a regular strike with slightly more damage than the Magus did with just a Strike. Granted, spellstrike with telekinetic projectile still did quite a bit more damage.
Also, having to sustain the spell did become a limiting factor. I did not feel nearly as mobile as the other party members or even the vampire mastermind that we were chasing around the room. I don't think I ever managed to actually make a Strike attack at the vampire mastermind - just the various remaining wolves and vampire spawn that were there. Still, mopping up and taking out the trash felt pretty good for a spellcaster.
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Overall thoughts:
I like Darkened Forest Form. It feels a lot like Wild Shape, but it is a bit more limiting to use - that sustained duration does cost quite a bit.
I like Discomfiting Whispers even if I didn't get to actually use it. It feels like it has a really nice combat impact, but is also rather tricky to use well. It makes an interesting challenge for the entire party to try and work around.
I like Earth's Bile as long as it is limited to one casting at a time. It makes a good spell in comparison with things like Wildfire and Elemental Toss. It might be better if it was an instant duration and two action cost - like those other blasting damage focus spells - rather than one action and sustained.
I don't like Embodiment of Battle. It doesn't do enough for a casual player who is just building an Animist character to have fun with. And potentially it does too much for a min-maxer who poaches the spell to put it on a Fighter. As a character built for dabbling with a little bit of everything, Embodiment of Battle would have left me swinging at least 3 points behind the Magus on Strike attack bonus - and that is after building Strength up to +3 (which is not really normal for a spellcaster class - certainly not something obvious that a casual player is going to do). I think this spell would work better if it did a level/rank based attack bonus replacement - the same way that Animal Form does. Simply that: at level N, you get attack bonus +x. It prevents shenanigans with putting it on a Fighter, and prevents trap options for casual players.
I really like the way that the Apparitions have so much riding on them. The focus spell, the cantrip, and the repertoire spells. No matter which one you choose an Apparition for, you have to just suck it up and try to force-fit use the other stuff you get with it.
Which is how I ended up with Fire Wall and Aqueous Orb. I had Fire Wall as a result of wanting to play with Earth's Bile in the previous fight. And I had Aqueous Orb simply because I wanted to use all of the Apparitions at least once during the playtest and Vanguard of Roaring Waters ended up on this day's preparations.
The Divine Cantrip slots feel really limited. Only having two of them stings. Especially with the above point that getting another cantrip that I do want has strings attached. It means I may not get a focus spell that I want instead.
I would actually prefer if I got three Divine cantrip slots and could only choose 2 Apparitions max.
For more reasons than just the Cantrips. I think having so many Apparitions is a bit too much. It makes the disperse feats less costly since you will have plenty of Apparitions left and probably chose one primarily for the purpose of sacrificing to the dispersal ability. Having fewer Apparitions attuned means that each one is important. Also, if the Apparition gives a particular ability of a different class, it also means that the Animist is taking over less of the roles of other characters. A narrower amount of poached abilities. Which means that the ability that they do get can be at fuller power without completely invalidating the other characters.
I also love the Wandering feats. I picked up Blazing Spirit, but I didn't have opportunity to use it. At least, not that I remembered to actually use it with. But the idea of those feats is absolutely fantastic. I just wish that they were available at earlier level than level 6.
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I like Darkened Forest Form. It feels a lot like Wild Shape, but it is a bit more limiting to use - that sustained duration does cost quite a bit.
I complete agree with you here.
I like Discomfiting Whispers even if I didn't get to actually use it. It feels like it has a really nice combat impact, but is also rather tricky to use well. It makes an interesting challenge for the entire party to try and work around.
But I disagree here.
Discomfiting Whispers have the problem of need to stay into melee range. It make sense for "martial" animist's builds that focus into Dex/Str/Con instead of Wis but at same time this kind of build usually is focused into Embodiment of Battle in order to attack instead of cast spells (because cast at melee range risks [s]AoO[/b] RS too much). Its also possible for Channelers to use the Whispers with Embodiment of Battle or Darkened Forest Form (if you don't want to make a melee focused build) at same time but this will cost 2-actions every round what only gives you 1 action to attack or do any other thing than Sustaining Dance hurting your action economy too much.
I like Earth's Bile as long as it is limited to one casting at a time. It makes a good spell in comparison with things like Wildfire and Elemental Toss. It might be better if it was an instant duration and two action cost - like those other blasting damage focus spells - rather than one action and sustained.IMO you are comparing Bile with wrong spells that are instant instead it's comparable to [url=https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=121]Flaming Sphere
.
Comparing just the dmg numbers the Sphere wins because it's 1d6 per Heightened (+1) while Bile is 2d4 per Heightened (+2). What makes the Bile so good is the fact that all Vessel Spells are casted with 1-action instead of the normal 2-actions what allows the "cheese" of cast 3 vessel spells at once instead of divide them in 3 rounds due the 2-action cost like happen with other sustained damage spells and impulses and the fact that its AoE is 10 ft burst and isn't save or suck.
In that point I agree thats the spell is stronger but in the form not in the power and being honest it could be said about the other Vessel Spells too once many of them are sustained versions of other spells with durations but castable with only 1-action.
I don't like Embodiment of Battle. It doesn't do enough for a casual player who is just building an Animist character to have fun with. And potentially it does too much for a min-maxer who poaches the spell to put it on a Fighter. As a character built for dabbling with a little bit of everything, Embodiment of Battle would have left me swinging at least 3 points behind the Magus on Strike attack bonus - and that is after building Strength up to +3 (which is not really normal for a spellcaster class - certainly not something obvious that a casual player is going to do). I think this spell would work better if it did a level/rank based attack bonus replacement - the same way that Animal Form does. Simply that: at level N, you get attack bonus +x. It prevents shenanigans with putting it on a Fighter, and prevents trap options for casual players.
Embodiment of Battle is a solution for those who want to make a healer/support "martial" that want to fight into the frontline while still able to heal and support allies. Usually this kind of builds dump its key atribute (because healing and supportive spells doesn't need it) and focus into Str/Dex/Con. It's the animist version of melee Warpriest, Battle Oracles and Bards with Martial Muse including suffers from the same problem that's the bad Armor proficiency progression.
I really like the way that the Apparitions have so much riding on them. The focus spell, the cantrip, and the repertoire spells. No matter which one you choose an Apparition for, you have to just suck it up and try to force-fit use the other stuff you get with it.
Which is how I ended up with Fire Wall and Aqueous Orb. I had Fire Wall as a result of wanting to play with Earth's Bile in the previous fight. And I had Aqueous Orb simply because I wanted to use all of the Apparitions at least once during the playtest and Vanguard of Roaring Waters ended up on this day's preparations.
The Divine Cantrip slots feel really limited. Only having two of them stings. Especially with the above point that getting another cantrip that I do want has strings attached. It means I may not get a focus spell that I want instead.
I would actually prefer if I got three Divine cantrip slots and could only choose 2 Apparitions max.
For more reasons than just the Cantrips. I think having so many Apparitions is a bit too much. It makes the disperse feats less costly since you will have plenty of Apparitions left and probably chose one primarily for the purpose of sacrificing to the dispersal ability. Having fewer Apparitions attuned means that each one is important. Also, if the Apparition gives a particular ability of a different class, it also means that the Animist is taking over less of the roles of other characters. A narrower amount of poached abilities. Which means that the ability that they do get can be at fuller power without completely invalidating the other characters.
I also love the Wandering feats. I picked up Blazing Spirit, but I didn't have opportunity to use it. At least, not that I remembered to actually use it with. But the idea of those feats is absolutely fantastic. I just wish that they were available at earlier level than level 6.
This is exactly the part that I have the most problems with the class.
Everything here is overly complicated and limited. Apparitions theoretically give you the freedom to make your build very flexible, but in practice you are limited by templates (apparitions) that you normally chose because of one or another detail such as a Vessel Spell, a cantrip or a specific spell (these 2 last ones are less common) and ends up being full of "holes" in slots and cantrips having to compensate them in some other way (in the case of slots with Embodiment of the Balance) or simply accept that you are left with some cantrip or level that it doesn't make sense for you and your build.
This is actually the big problem with Wandering feats. Sacrificing an apparition means sacrificing a Vessel Spell option + 1 spell option for each rank + 1 cantrip and honestly, with the exception of Apparition's Quickening, most feats don't seem good enough to compensate for this sacrifice.
Interestingly, this leads me to the same conclusion as you, just for different reasons. Perhaps the class could have fewer appearances and focus more on one or two at a time, but it makes up for it with greater freedom of choice in spells, allowing you to freely choose your cantrips or whether you will use all your spell slots to cast divine spells or whether to use those of apparitions.
This is exactly the part that I have the most problems with the class.
Everything here is overly complicated and limited.
It is still a huge improvement over Medium from 1e.