Changes I would like to see

[siegfriedliner]

So there are a couple of quality of life changes I think would make the anamist funner to play.

First letting them you wisdom for thier granted lore skills will do a lot to see those skills used.

Second making them a 3 slot prepared caster who can sacrafice spell slots of equal level to cast apparition spells (like the Cleric could do for cure spells in 1e) would make the tracking a little easier rather than having two different sets of spell slots.

I think adding the flourish trait to some of the vessel spells would also stop people stacking earth's bile in an unsightly fashion.

[Teridax]

siegfriedliner wrote:

Second making them a 3 slot prepared caster who can sacrafice spell slots of equal level to cast apparition spells (like the Cleric could do for cure spells in 1e) would make the tracking a little easier rather than having two different sets of spell slots.

I 100% support this. Not only would this make the Animist's spellcasting dramatically easier to grok, I feel it would also significantly benefit the class's flexibility: using the same slots for prepared and spontaneous spellcasting would give the Animist more agency over how much of one or the other type of spellcasting they want to use in a day, and make the class's hybrid casting stand out even more by being able to override prepared spells with spontaneous spells as the situation demands. It would allow the Animist to prepare much more niche spells under the assurance that they could always use those slots for spontaneous spells if the niche spells don't work out for the day, and as a consequence of this I think it would also make the class much more accessible and forgiving to newer players, despite the class's other aspects that make it more complex. It would allow the Animist to opt into the Flexible Spellcaster archetype, and could potentially also lead to a high-level feat that could let you cast both an apparition spell and a prepared spell at the same time with low-level slots. It just feels like switching to this implementation would benefit the Animist in so many ways.

[Gortle]

siegfriedliner wrote:

First letting them you wisdom for thier granted lore skills will do a lot to see those skills used.

It is a slippery slope. I'd rather see the role of individual ability scores protected.

[siegfriedliner]

Gortle wrote:

siegfriedliner wrote:

First letting them you wisdom for thier granted lore skills will do a lot to see those skills used.

It is a slippery slope. I'd rather see the role of individual ability scores protected.

I am not to worried their are already wisdom knowledge skills (nature, religion) so this would just be in keeping with the instinctual Vs learned knowledge. Not to mention thaumaturge already went their and wisdom is a lot easier to justify than charisma.

[The Raven Black]

Teridax wrote:

siegfriedliner wrote:

Second making them a 3 slot prepared caster who can sacrafice spell slots of equal level to cast apparition spells (like the Cleric could do for cure spells in 1e) would make the tracking a little easier rather than having two different sets of spell slots.

I 100% support this. Not only would this make the Animist's spellcasting dramatically easier to grok, I feel it would also significantly benefit the class's flexibility: using the same slots for prepared and spontaneous spellcasting would give the Animist more agency over how much of one or the other type of spellcasting they want to use in a day, and make the class's hybrid casting stand out even more by being able to override prepared spells with spontaneous spells as the situation demands. It would allow the Animist to prepare much more niche spells under the assurance that they could always use those slots for spontaneous spells if the niche spells don't work out for the day, and as a consequence of this I think it would also make the class much more accessible and forgiving to newer players, despite the class's other aspects that make it more complex. It would allow the Animist to opt into the Flexible Spellcaster archetype, and could potentially also lead to a high-level feat that could let you cast both an apparition spell and a prepared spell at the same time with low-level slots. It just feels like switching to this implementation would benefit the Animist in so many ways.

I think it would be broken.

They would be able to prepare 3 spells per day (so 1 more than the current version) and cast a Repertoire spell as much as 3 times a day (so 2 more times than the current until level 10 when it will be only 1 time more).

Is the current version of the class so underpowered ?

[Teridax]

The Raven Black wrote:

I think it would be broken.

They would be able to prepare 3 spells per day (so 1 more than the current version) and cast a Repertoire spell as much as 3 times a day (so 2 more times than the current until level 10 when it will be only 1 time more).

Is the current version of the class so underpowered ?

You seem to have missed the part where prepared and apparition spellcasting would use the same slots: every prepared spell you cast would mean a spontaneous spell you wouldn't be able to cast, and vice versa. The Animist would therefore have fewer spell slots than they currently have now, even if those spell slots would be more flexible.

[John R.]

Teridax wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

I think it would be broken.

They would be able to prepare 3 spells per day (so 1 more than the current version) and cast a Repertoire spell as much as 3 times a day (so 2 more times than the current until level 10 when it will be only 1 time more).

Is the current version of the class so underpowered ?

You seem to have missed the part where prepared and apparition spellcasting would use the same slots: every prepared spell you cast would mean a spontaneous spell you wouldn't be able to cast, and vice versa. The Animist would therefore have fewer spell slots than they currently have now, even if those spell slots would be more flexible.

After playing with the spellcasting, I do think 3 slots would be broken but I think with 2 slots it would be on par with where it is now, power wise. As complicated as it is though, I think I'd rather just have the 2+2 for longevity. I could live with the 2 slot/level hybrid or flexible or whatever it'd ultimately be referred to.

[siegfriedliner]

The Raven Black wrote:

Teridax wrote:

siegfriedliner wrote:

Second making them a 3 slot prepared caster who can sacrafice spell slots of equal level to cast apparition spells (like the Cleric could do for cure spells in 1e) would make the tracking a little easier rather than having two different sets of spell slots.

I 100% support this. Not only would this make the Animist's spellcasting dramatically easier to grok, I feel it would also significantly benefit the class's flexibility: using the same slots for prepared and spontaneous spellcasting would give the Animist more agency over how much of one or the other type of spellcasting they want to use in a day, and make the class's hybrid casting stand out even more by being able to override prepared spells with spontaneous spells as the situation demands. It would allow the Animist to prepare much more niche spells under the assurance that they could always use those slots for spontaneous spells if the niche spells don't work out for the day, and as a consequence of this I think it would also make the class much more accessible and forgiving to newer players, despite the class's other aspects that make it more complex. It would allow the Animist to opt into the Flexible Spellcaster archetype, and could potentially also lead to a high-level feat that could let you cast both an apparition spell and a prepared spell at the same time with low-level slots. It just feels like switching to this implementation would benefit the Animist in so many ways.

I think it would be broken.

They would be able to prepare 3 spells per day (so 1 more than the current version) and cast a Repertoire spell as much as 3 times a day (so 2 more times than the current until level 10 when it will be only 1 time more).

Is the current version of the class so underpowered ?

So before 10th level it would be more powerful than the current setup because you would have the free choice between prepared and spontaneous spells.

After 10th level you have less spells.

But I just think that not having two different separate spells pools would be better in terms of play experience.

I think making their unique versatile spellcasting work well is worth it even if it means power cuts in other areas.

[Teridax]

John R. wrote:

After playing with the spellcasting, I do think 3 slots would be broken but I think with 2 slots it would be on par with where it is now, power wise. As complicated as it is though, I think I'd rather just have the 2+2 for longevity. I could live with the 2 slot/level hybrid or flexible or whatever it'd ultimately be referred to.

From my own experience testing this, as I've floated the idea by before and experimented with an iteration for another brew, 3 slots per rank felt like the sweet spot to me. Losing that level 10 bonus felt like a fair tradeoff for the Animist, and the power issues I've experienced stemmed mainly from apparitions and the flexibility of their spellcasting, which I've found excessive and a significant complicating factor. I feel that with apparitions dialled back a touch, with perhaps one fixed and one wandering apparition as a baseline, most of the Animist's most egregious excesses in slot spellcasting power would be resolved.

[Zoken44]

The change I'd like to see is some kind of minor passive bonus from your prepared Apparitions. Right now you get Lore and the spontaneous casting, and the vessel spell of your primary apparition. I don't know, it just seems like it should impart something else.

I do like the suggested wisdom instead of intelligence for your APPARITION PROVIDED Lore checks.(not ones granted by background or other sources without a special feat) otherwise you start to get MAD

I would like to see Apparition whirl do something else in addition to what it already does (change your primary apparition) give +1 to AC as the spirits whirling around you disturb the air and possibly cause physical objects to go awry. This would give you even more reason to Rotate in combat, apart from spell lists and vessel spells. It also might give a bit more balance against the Sage who gets a LOT of protections (situational as they may be).

[PlanetOfRoses]

The Raven Black wrote:

Teridax wrote:

siegfriedliner wrote:

Second making them a 3 slot prepared caster who can sacrafice spell slots of equal level to cast apparition spells (like the Cleric could do for cure spells in 1e) would make the tracking a little easier rather than having two different sets of spell slots.

I 100% support this. Not only would this make the Animist's spellcasting dramatically easier to grok, I feel it would also significantly benefit the class's flexibility: using the same slots for prepared and spontaneous spellcasting would give the Animist more agency over how much of one or the other type of spellcasting they want to use in a day, and make the class's hybrid casting stand out even more by being able to override prepared spells with spontaneous spells as the situation demands. It would allow the Animist to prepare much more niche spells under the assurance that they could always use those slots for spontaneous spells if the niche spells don't work out for the day, and as a consequence of this I think it would also make the class much more accessible and forgiving to newer players, despite the class's other aspects that make it more complex. It would allow the Animist to opt into the Flexible Spellcaster archetype, and could potentially also lead to a high-level feat that could let you cast both an apparition spell and a prepared spell at the same time with low-level slots. It just feels like switching to this implementation would benefit the Animist in so many ways.

I think it would be broken.

They would be able to prepare 3 spells per day (so 1 more than the current version) and cast a Repertoire spell as much as 3 times a day (so 2 more times than the current until level 10 when it will be only 1 time more).

Is the current version of the class so underpowered ?

I agree with this.

Personally I think the Animist's spellcasting should stay at it is. Not only is it thematic, it provides a mechanical novelty that helps it stand out from other casters.

[tytalan]

I think that there are a few problems with the spell casting that must be addressed. As it is right now they have every advantage of both a prepared caster and a spontaneous cast plus with their only disadvantage being the limited slots for each and set lists which the sorcerer already have.
10 level the apparition spell casting really starts breaking things up until than you have a prepared caster with a slight bonus of spontaneous casting balanced with the lower number of spells but the extra slot changes this giving them all the advantage of a prepared Devine caster with 1 less slot pre rank and a Sorcerer with half the slots and three times the signature spells four times at 12 level and most of these spells are from outside of the Devine list. That’s a insane amount of versatility and as new Apparitions get added in later books this is only going to get worse.

So here’s how I think you fix it.
1) don’t give the bonus spell slots at 10 level ( caveat if your doing this to all casters in remastered we found it’s acceptable but otherwise don’t)
2) make only the primary Apparition given spells Signatures spells this cuts some of the versatility.
3) spread out the Apparitions a little more give them the third one at 8 level and the fourth at 16 level
4) the feat that adds heal&harm to there Apparition spell list needs to be at a higher level say 4 or 6
5) let’s them only change their primary Apparition when refocusing

From the testing my group has done this goes a long way to bringing spellcasting in line.

[Solarsyphon]

siegfriedliner wrote:

Gortle wrote:

siegfriedliner wrote:

First letting them you wisdom for thier granted lore skills will do a lot to see those skills used.

It is a slippery slope. I'd rather see the role of individual ability scores protected.

I am not to worried their are already wisdom knowledge skills (nature, religion) so this would just be in keeping with the instinctual Vs learned knowledge. Not to mention thaumaturge already went their and wisdom is a lot easier to justify than charisma.

I always thought the thaumaturge should be an intelligence class, it's actually one of the least charisma feeling classes for me. For example both the animist and the exemplar feel closer to a charisma class than the thaumturge because the exemplar is this larger than life personality based on legends and the animist deals with spirits. Both classes could function with charisma as a choice of main stat. Meanwhile, unless the flavor of the thaumaturge is supposed to be that you are so convincing when lying about knowing enemies weaknesses and history that it actually becomes true, I don't think it makes sense. Is it just because the incredible investiture feat requires high charisma and they use items? everybody uses items...

Any way animist makes sense to be wisdom or cha and be able to use which ever it is using for lore. Interpreted as either intuitively feeling the spirit or convincing them to aid you.

[Blake's Tiger]

Regarding the Lore skills, I agree with the resistance toward changing what statistic modifies Lore.

However, unless you're going all in on casting--and even then, maybe still--you don't have much to put toward Intelligence. So, I do feel like the granted Lores at {Level+2} are pretty unexciting and tough to hit at-level DCs.

Maybe add a +1 or +2 circumstance bonus to the Lores granted by the apparitions/granted by the primary apparition to represent the spirit assisting in the knowledge.

[The Raven Black]

tytalan wrote:

I think that there are a few problems with the spell casting that must be addressed. As it is right now they have every advantage of both a prepared caster and a spontaneous cast plus with their only disadvantage being the limited slots for each and set lists which the sorcerer already have.

10 level the apparition spell casting really starts breaking things up until than you have a prepared caster with a slight bonus of spontaneous casting balanced with the lower number of spells but the extra slot changes this giving them all the advantage of a prepared Devine caster with 1 less slot pre rank and a Sorcerer with half the slots and three times the signature spells four times at 12 level and most of these spells are from outside of the Devine list. That’s a insane amount of versatility and as new Apparitions get added in later books this is only going to get worse.

So here’s how I think you fix it.
1) don’t give the bonus spell slots at 10 level ( caveat if your doing this to all casters in remastered we found it’s acceptable but otherwise don’t)
2) make only the primary Apparition given spells Signatures spells this cuts some of the versatility.
3) spread out the Apparitions a little more give them the third one at 8 level and the fourth at 16 level
4) the feat that adds heal&harm to there Apparition spell list needs to be at a higher level say 4 or 6
5) let’s them only change their primary Apparition when refocusing

From the testing my group has done this goes a long way to bringing spellcasting in line.

Why don't you share the actual playtest and its results on the playtest board ?

[Unicore]

Playtesting variant rules of playtest classes really does not help the developers decide what changes to make. As an experiment in homebrewing there is nothing wrong with modifying things, but I can promise you that one table coming up with their own variant rules, or even 10 tables following the same set of rules is not going to change what aspects of the class are being looked at for refinement or what new ideas will be thrown in the mix.

If you playtest with rules other than the ones being playtested, it mostly just invalidates the surveys your group turns in and if you dont let the developers know on each survey turned in, it starts to taint the whole data set

[The Raven Black]

Unicore wrote:

Playtesting variant rules of playtest classes really does not help the developers decide what changes to make. As an experiment in homebrewing there is nothing wrong with modifying things, but I can promise you that one table coming up with their own variant rules, or even 10 tables following the same set of rules is not going to change what aspects of the class are being looked at for refinement or what new ideas will be thrown in the mix.

If you playtest with rules other than the ones being playtested, it mostly just invalidates the surveys your group turns in and if you dont let the developers know on each survey turned in, it starts to taint the whole data set

Perfectly true. I was talking about sharing the results of the first playtest that I presume tytalan played with the original playtest rules before making any adjustment.

[Squiggit]

Spreading out the apparitions a bit might be fine, third apparition comes really fast (although that would leave the class at 2 focus points for a while without archetypes, which might be okay).

But a lot of the other suggestions are pretty bad.

[MEATSHED]

Yeah I don't understand delaying embodiment of the balance to 4, it's not a particularly strong feat.

[thatdamncat789]

I disagree with letting the Lores scale with wisdom. I get the instinct but consider when it comes to Lore knowledge checks and DCs that they are lower than the general skills effectively canceling out the lost int. Along with if you're that concerned consider due to the access to medium armor you simply don't need to invest in dex as much as other spellcasters do. This allows you to invest more into intelligence to empower those lores. Not to mention as you level these lores auto scale meaning you don't need to invest skill boosts into them.

[siegfriedliner]

thatdamncat789 wrote:

I disagree with letting the Lores scale with wisdom. I get the instinct but consider when it comes to Lore knowledge checks and DCs that they are lower than the general skills effectively canceling out the lost int. Along with if you're that concerned consider due to the access to medium armor you simply don't need to invest in dex as much as other spellcasters do. This allows you to invest more into intelligence to empower those lores. Not to mention as you level these lores auto scale meaning you don't need to invest skill boosts into them.

I tried a session as a iruxi gish Animist so I had 8 in intelligence and didn't bother to use my lores that's obviously not a serious problem in the end of the days the lores are a very tiny part of the classes power budget but its still a shame to have dead weight.

[Squiggit]

With reduced lore DCs coming into play I found the numbers aren't actually that bad in practice unless you just dump Int (in which case you're kind of choosing that). Especially considering that you have so many. By level 4 you're rolling up to 6 extra lores. That can cover a lot of bases potentially.

The scaling is a little weird, though.

[roquepo]

I like a lot the idea of using the same slots for spontaneous and prepared. Much easier to track and understand.

Also, as a Psychic enjoyer, I wouldn't mind much if the class ends up having just 2 slots per level ngl.

[Loreguard]

As I was going over discussions about the wizard and the remaster, and looking at all the different types of casters, and comparing them, it occurred to me that I really felt the Animist's spontaneous casting list should be called a Collection such as how it is referred in the Flexible casting archetype, since it is populated based on daily choices in preparations, unlike the far more static list that can't change nearly as rapidly which we call a Repertoire.