Magical Thief? Eldritch Scoundrel or Arcant Trickster? Or other?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


So, I'v been tossing around this idea for a while... A sneaky thief/rogue type with magic and it seems like the two best options are Eldritch Scoundrel or Arcane Trickster and I was wondering what the strengths and weaknesses of the two are? And if there are any other good options.

I am sorry for the vague idea, I dont really have anything big or specific in mind, I just want a sneaky character with skills, Some sneak attack and combat ability with daggers, And true arcane magic!


If you want ARCANE POWAH! then arcane trickster can be done as a full caster with only a 1 level dip into a sneak attack class (unchained rogue or vivesectionist most recommended). Eldritch scoundrel is a solid mix of skill and magic, arcane trickster can manage whatever mix of magic and skill by varying the mix of class levels.


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Snakebite striker brawler 1/[arcane caster*] 4/arcane trickster keeps the character's BAB on par with a straight +1/2 BAB caster instead of falling behind with vivisectionist alchemist or rogue. Also, the free Weapon Finesse from Unchained rogue is... not that valuable (IMO) to a character that should avoid melee combat; the arcane trickster should be played (again, IMO) as a blaster, adding Sneak Attack damage to ranged touch spells.

If you want to be a melee-focused magical thief, then eldritch scoundrel with a dip in a full BAB class with light armor proficiency and the Arcane Armor Training feat will work better.

*- preferably one with obscuring mist, plus some way (sylph with Cloud Gazer, Air/Smoke school wizard, a goz mask, etc.) to see though it to set up ranged sneak attacks consistently


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You are forgetting about the archeologist bard. The bard spell list is actually very good for utility and trickery. Because they are a 6th level caster, they get early access to some spells. Heroism is only a 2nd level bard spell, so they get access to it at 4th level instead of 5th level. Heroism combined with the archeologist luck can give your skills, attacks and saves a huge boost. They also get baric knowledge and bonus to all perceptions rolls, not just for traps. At 10th level they get Jack of all Trades so can use any skill untrained.

Eldritch scoundrel only gets 4 skills per level vs the bards 6 and their spells per day are about the same as a bard. The Arcane trickster will end up with more skills than an Eldritch Scoundrel. Both of them use INT for their casting stat so that will even things out and maybe even give them a slight edge. But once you factor in the bonus from bardic knowledge and clever explorer the archeologist still has an advantage. They can also take 10 on both knowledge skills and disable device.

Clever explorer also allows them to use disable device faster than normal without having to use any rogue talents. They get rogue talents and have about the same number as an Eldritch Scoundrel and more than an Arcane Trickster.

They are proficient with light armor and can cast while wearing it without having any arcane spell failure. They will have better saves than either of the other two classes. Their BAB and HP is equal to the Eldritch Scoundrel and better than the Arcane Trickster.


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Merellin wrote:
I am sorry for the vague idea, I dont really have anything big or specific in mind, I just want a sneaky character with skills, Some sneak attack and combat ability with daggers, And true arcane magic!

Does it have to have Sneak Attack? Because I don't see anything in "A sneaky thief/rogue type with magic" that leans itself to Sneak Attack, unless you exclusively mean Rogue as in the class name and not as an ordinary English word.

Unless you're ultra locked-in on Sneak Attack, Questioner Investigator deserves recommendation. Probably the best class/archetype in the entire games when it comes to skills, int-based arcane casting from the Bard list, and a backstab-style combat mechanic that is actually good.


The best way to think about the difference between these two is that Eldritch Scoundrel is a Rogue who has Wizard abilities, while an Arcane Trickster is a Wizard who has Rogue abilities.

Eldritch Scoundrel works best with two-handed finessable weapons like the Estoc, Elven Curve Blade, or Elven Branched Spear. Because you need a free hand to cast spells you can't dual-wield, but two-handed weapons work just fine. By utilizing the Vanishing Trick ninja trick (which you can use by sacrificing a 1st level spell) you can have swift action invisibility available, creating for a really nice tricky rogue attacker. I really like the Eldritch Scoundrel, but the one thing I'd caution is that it's really slow to get rolling and at 1st and 2nd level it feels like a weak Wizard.

Arcane Trickster is a Wizard first. By using the Accomplished Sneak Attacker feat you can qualify with only 1 level of Rogue, maximizing your Wizard levels. You can then focus your character around delivering sneak attacks with ray spells. This approach generally doesn't do well with weapons, and if you do want to go the melee combat route then you'll want to focus on the polymorph spells and use natural attacks and not daggers.


@Mysterious Stranger The archeologist bard sounds interesting, Thanks! I'l check it out!

@Derklord It does not need to be sneak attack no, Thats just what was at the top of my mind. I have not seen the Questioner Inquisitor before, I'l take a closer look at it. Thanks!


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Any investigator works well as a magical thief. They are basically a combination of rogue and alchemist. They don’t get spells per say, but their extracts can give them decent magical ability. Extracts tend to focus on boosting the character instead of affecting others, but they can be fairly effective.

I prefer the Archeologist bard because I think spontaneous casting works better for this type of character. Also, the synergy between the Archeologist Luck and some of the spells (especially heroism) is incredible. Bards also get a fair number or illusion and enchantment spells. Those can be very useful for a thief.

Bards also get cantrips which can be use an unlimited number of times. At first level they can start with Detect Magic, Mage Hand, Mending and Prestidigitation. The value of Detect Magic and Mage Hand should be fairly obvious. Mending allows you to break things and fix them which is great for covering up evidence. Prestidigitation is probably one of the most useful things a thief can have. It can be used to clean up the character after crawling through the sewers or change the appearance of something by changing its color. By making something look dirty by soiling it you can increase the chance of hiding the loot you just stole. The possibilities are endless with prestidigitation.


Merellin wrote:

... A sneaky thief/rogue type with magic and it seems like the two best options are Eldritch Scoundrel or Arcane Trickster and I was wondering what the strengths and weaknesses of the two are? And if there are any other good options.

..., I just want a sneaky character with skills, Some sneak attack and combat ability with daggers, And true arcane magic!

option three = other.

Mage-killer Build
You can pick up sneak attack but honestly with a multiclass it's never gonna be that great and it involves being up close AND meeting the prerequisites(easier as an invis wizard but there are simple counters like Blur). Stealth just needs skill ranks and a decent Dex, combined with Shadow Projection and a ghost touch rapier (or dagger in your case) it will be quite nice. I did this with a Rog2 Wiz(Trans) but it was not as powerful as the Mage-killer. If you go this route you will need Eschew Materials and a spell to grant the shadow the ability to speak if the GM rules against that, so all very doable. Don't forget 2 (implanted) ioun stones (regen, +Con for dying) for your body in case things go awry.
Most traps are easily bypassed by simple spells or you can use AZ Focus:D2{Focus=MW Thieves Tools $100} AZ's Trap Ward:A4{as before}.
I'd invest in some cheap obsidian daggers as disposables. Wreath of Blades:A5 isn't worth the trouble.
A Wiz has to choose Str or Dex for combat, and with Dex working for defense it seems a clear choice. This leads to Weapon Finesse and Ranged weapons (Point-blank & Precise). WpnFnss melee Wpns(descending order)[elven curve blade, estoc, spiked chain, elven branched spear, (aldori dueling sword), elven thornblade, rapier, spiral rapier, wakizashi, waveblade, boarding axe & gladius & many others, etc ]. A repeating heavy crossbow is about the best you can do with this build as neither class grants a bow. Gravity Bow & Unseen Servant spells help damage & action economy.
Monk gets you some good weapon proficiencies & skills along with +3 to all saves. On weapons you'll get cestus, possibly tonfa (it's only in the monk weapon group). The spell Bestow Weapon Proficiency is helpful if you go with a big damaging weapon.

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