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The animist save progression is really weird and I don't see a dedicated thread talking about it.
First channelers get the following:
Intermediary Boon: At 9th level, your proficiency rank
for Fortitude saves increases to master. When you roll a
success on a Will save, you get a critical success instead.
If this is not an error it's unprecedented for a class to get an upgraded degree of success for a save without being master in the save. Also every time a class gives master proficiency in a save the class also upgrades success to critical success.
The other issue I found is that sages don't become master in any type of saving throw. Which is really bad and also unprecedented.
I assume these are errors. In which case it is important that we get the accurate save progression for the animist class.
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The Channeler Intermediary Boon is not an error - meaning that the devs meant exactly what they wrote when they wrote it.
It is unprecedented and kind of strange.
Also Perception. If it is just fine for game balance to have Druid and Cleric - which are also Wisdom-based classes - to get Perception going up to Expert (Druid at level 3 and Cleric at level 5), then I don't see why Animist is staying at Trained permanently.
The fact that the intermediary boon is intentional is honestly baffling to me. I really want to know the reasoning behind that.
Looks like its perception increases to expert at 9th level with Apparition’s Awareness.
Spitballing an idea here. And assuming that Perception does get boosted to Expert in base chassis at level 3-5 range.
What do people think of having Apparition stat blocks boost a Saving throw or Perception proficiency after a certain level.
For example, Imposter in Hidden Places increases Perception to Master at level 11, and Steward of Stone and Fire increases Fortitude saves to Master at level 13.
Animist gets Expert Perception at 9th Level. I was assuming that there was a typo, and the Channeler for master Will/Fort at the same level, but master will should be part of the bad class, not the sub class. To fix Sage I would give them legendary Will with their 17th level boon (tho master in another save wouldn’t hurt)
Looks like its perception increases to expert at 9th level with Apparition’s Awareness.
Yes, I missed that in the list.
So, not worse than Alchemist. And is better than Champion that gets Expert Perception at level 11.
Honestly Perception proficiency is kind of all over the place.
Bard starts at Expert along with Gunslinger and Swashbuckler. Druid gets it at level 3 even though it is a Wisdom key ability class. Cleric at 5.
The strangest one is Inventor that goes from Trained at level 1 to Master at level 13. Never hitting Expert anywhere along the way.
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In many ways, getting perception and stats boosted to Expert at level 3 is kind of the worst of situations for most classes because it is eating up class feature real estate which can just be covered by a general feat. But no body wants to be a human, to get a general feat, and then spend it on something that will change out in 2 levels. 9 levels on the other hand is a lot more promising and the animist really can just wandering feat cover perception for initiaitve starting at level 6, so you have a pretty big window there where you can retrain out of it before or right after you get the boost.
Wisdom based characters just getting handed fast will save progressions and perception has to tread water carefully. I don't think the possession resistance of the class is quite dialed in right, but having that makes a lot of sense to me if it can be more than just what incapacitation already gives. Does it make sense for the Animist to just essentially be immune to fear? Because that is largely what happens if the they get master +, and honestly that feels like space that would be better tied to a focus spell given to an apparition than something just always on for the class by default.
Like not being scared by ghosts or haunts or undead could make sense as a class thing, but a demon or eldritch terror should be as terrifying to an animist as to any other class not built around fighting them.
(this is a general statement not directed at anyone)
Sometimes with these play tests, it feels like people get really caught up in analyzing the chassis without really looking at how the various abilities of the class work together in play. A little bit of that feedback is good, because that is how people's first glance at a class will often look, but when classes offer really interesting, thematic and clever ways of fulfilling the purpose of a proficiency increase without having to give the increase, I think that can be better and more narratively rich for the game than characters just feeling defined by proficiency numbers. Bravery for example is a very well done version of this.
I agree the possession and control version of this for the class is one of/maybe the weakest link in the whole class and needs dialing in, but I'd rather see that dialed in than just universal will save proficiency boosting.
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I get what you are saying about the class needing looked at as a whole rather than just any one particular save progression.
But...
Does it make sense for the Animist to just essentially be immune to fear? Because that is largely what happens if the they get master +, and honestly that feels like space that would be better tied to a focus spell given to an apparition than something just always on for the class by default.
Like not being scared by ghosts or haunts or undead could make sense as a class thing, but a demon or eldritch terror should be as terrifying to an animist as to any other class not built around fighting them.
Does it somehow make more sense for a Druid to be the best Ghost hunter, Demon killer, and Eldritch terror battler?
Because they do start at Expert Will saves, and get Master at level 11. Cleric gets Master Will at 9.
So both of those classes just get to be the 'immune to fear' that you are mentioning - Wisdom primary ability and Master+ Will saves. But we need to prevent Animist from getting Master+ because...?
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I do think it makes sense for the cleric to be particularly strong willed. So that one doesn't really bother me at all. Druids getting master at 11...that is 6 levels faster than canny acumen. Significant for sure, but not game shatteringly so. I would probably rather see the various non-proficiency boosts increased. Like maybe making divert control more the basic defense against the controlled condition but also have ways to boost it to let you ignore being frightened or even take an additional action while stunned.
Spitballing an idea here. And assuming that Perception does get boosted to Expert in base chassis at level 3-5 range.
What do people think of having Apparition stat blocks boost a Saving throw or Perception proficiency after a certain level.
For example, Imposter in Hidden Places increases Perception to Master at level 11, and Steward of Stone and Fire increases Fortitude saves to Master at level 13.
I think that could be cool if different apparitions changed up your save and perception progression. Although I'm not sure how that would work for a sage with two primary apparitions.
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Wisdom based characters just getting handed fast will save progressions and perception has to tread water carefully.
You're acting like people are agitating for Animists to get some super special unique bonus no one else gets, but the whole reason this premise is even under question is the exact opposite.
Pointing out that wisdom characters have good will saves is true, but not really important when we're talking about a class being below the baseline to begin with.
I do think it makes sense for the cleric to be particularly strong willed. So that one doesn't really bother me at all.
I don't see it as a problem either. I mostly mentioned this one for completeness.
Druids getting master at 11...that is 6 levels faster than canny acumen. Significant for sure, but not game shatteringly so.
If this is the case (and I believe that it is), then I don't see how or why it would be a problem for Animist to have Master Will saves either. In addition to the bonuses and abilities specifically protecting them from haunts and ghosts. Though the numerical bonuses to Will saves may end up being lower. In compensation, those bonuses could be applied to other saves such as Fortitude saves from a haunt that tries to make you physically ill.
The only other class that I can see being even more accustomed to dealing with things that go 'bump' in the night is Thaumaturge. And they get Legendary in Will saves.
I agree that a boost somewhere in will saves might work and be the end result. I trust they are testing some things out and have back up plans. I’d like to see alternates to pure boosting if possible, but certainly if that is the added complexity the class is being weighed down by, I’d rather ditch it.
I just hope people play testing it look at it as an intended mechanical test and not a mistake to ignore.
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I believe the sage practice is lacking in save progression due to having access to enhanced defenses against being controlled, something common in will targeting spells and also gaining damage resistance from physical damage types from Soul Synchronization.
Based on the bonuses that Soul Synchronization gives and how Channeler's Stance works, I believe, generally, the sage practice is aimed more toward melee oriented Animists and channeler is for Animists focused on spellcasting.
I'm not arguing this is acceptable but I point it out as part of the reasoning for the variation and possible imbalance in practice chassis progression. This practically makes Soul Synchronization a tax feat for sages and I think it should be rolled in with Apparition's Possession by default as the intermediate boon.
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I'm running a higher level campaign, and it'd be absolutely rough if a character didn't have one of evasion/juggernaut/resolve. Every high level character should have at least one kind of save that they can upgrade from a success to a critical success.