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It makes you immune to charm effects of a certain level and limits what actions you can take... but as far as I can tell that's all it does?
That seems really strangely niche for the core feature of one of the two practices. The channeler's level 1 ability is essentially playstyle defining since it lets you change your vessel spells on the fly, while the Sage ability is just a very specific defensive option (and even then one that bosses or creatures with overleveled spell effects can just bypass entirely).
I realize symmetry isn't necessarily a goal, but at the same time it feels like the Sage doesn't do a lot to push a core theme until level 17 gives you dual primaries.
... It's also a little weird that Sage Animists end up having no Master-rank save proficiency at all.
What is a control effect, exactly?
First: Thematically, narratively, and for character building Apparition's Possession is absolutely awesome. I am definitely using that when porting over my 1e Medium character.
Second: An entire subclass shouldn't be judged by what feat it gives at 1st level. It should be part of what the subclass is judged on, but not all of it.
I haven't fully read and analyzed everything yet, so I may still be wrong on some of this. Aren't there quite a few good feats at later levels that have Apparition's Possession as a prerequisite? Soul Synchronization. And it makes Divert Control better. So getting it automatically at 1st level instead of paying a class feat for it seems decent if you aren't interested in what the other subclass options have available.
Edit: See, I am already wrong on things. Apparition's Possession isn't even a feat that the other subclasses could take.
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I agree with you entirely breithauptclan, except that I do think it's fair to judge a subclass based on what it gets at level 1.
Soul Synchronization is neat, but it's a level 8 feat. Dual primaries is good, but it's a level 17 option. No disputing that at higher levels Sage has some interesting things.
But when you first get invested in the subclass, it feels weirdly barren because of just how specific Possession's benefits actually are.
Also we have to notice that Soul Synchronization is very martial focused so makes sense when you use Imposter in Hidden Places or Vanguard of Roaring Waters as your primary apparition but isn't so useful for other choices. While Channeler's Apparition’s Whirl can work pretty well independently of your apparition choices (including it allows you to have 2 Vessel Spell at same time but will use 2-actions so maybe can't be the best curse of action in many cases but you still can do this).
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I don't think the defenses were overlooked. The class gets 8 HP, and several ways to bypass certain kinds of attacks against them. I think the sage's controlled thing is supposed to be like a will boost, and the channeler gets the Fort Boost. They also get a lot of spells slots by higher levels.
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I don't think the defenses were overlooked. The class gets 8 HP, and several ways to bypass certain kinds of attacks against them. I think the sage's controlled thing is supposed to be like a will boost, and the channeler gets the Fort Boost. They also get a lot of spells slots by higher levels.
It is a bit unclear on what Channeler gets at level 9. It says the proficiency boost is to Fortitude saves, but the level of success increase is to Will saves.
One of those is certain to be a typo.
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I don't think the defenses were overlooked. The class gets 8 HP, and several ways to bypass certain kinds of attacks against them. I think the sage's controlled thing is supposed to be like a will boost, and the channeler gets the Fort Boost. They also get a lot of spells slots by higher levels.It is a bit unclear on what Channeler gets at level 9. It says the proficiency boost is to Fortitude saves, but the level of success increase is to Will saves.
One of those is certain to be a typo.
This post says it's not a typo.
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This post says it's not a typo.It is a bit unclear on what Channeler gets at level 9. It says the proficiency boost is to Fortitude saves, but the level of success increase is to Will saves.
One of those is certain to be a typo.
OK.
Well, then. I would greatly recommend wording those a bit differently to show that it is two unrelated abilities rather than using the same wording pattern of things like Barbarian's Juggernaut class feature.
Design Manager
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This post says it's not a typo.It is a bit unclear on what Channeler gets at level 9. It says the proficiency boost is to Fortitude saves, but the level of success increase is to Will saves.
One of those is certain to be a typo.
OK.
Well, then. I would greatly recommend wording those a bit differently to show that it is two unrelated abilities rather than using the same wording pattern of things like Barbarian's Juggernaut class feature.
Yup, already got it in the notes.
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Additionally, the anti-control effect does ALMOST NOTHING.
See, it makes you immune to control effects of spells at rank half your level. So first off, doesn't do ANYTHING against non spells. Harpies still hit you, Kelpies, all of that. Their effects are not tied to a spell rank. Even if that changes in the remaster, doesn't work for older enemies.
Secondly, spell ranks equal to half your level. Dominate person is a rank 6 spell that an NPC spellcaster starts to get at level 11. At level 11, you are still vulnerable to it (level 11/2=5.5, less than half of rank 6). Gonna repeat that, the effect does nothing if you are going up against SAME-LEVEL spellcasters. Not 'something much more powerful than you' like said in the livestream, the same level.
Add to that the fact that many creatures get control spells early, such as a succubus (which gets Dominate person, an rank 6 spell, at level 7), the Vampire Count (again, dominate at creature level 6), and a Polong, which can posess you (spell rank 7, they Polong is creature level 8).
So yeah, the ability does not work unless the enemy is severely underleveled compared to you at which point . . . No, just, that never happens in Pathfinder. I've never seen a module or professionally written adventure where some monster tries to mind control you and they are severely under-leveled compared to you. Especially because many of the spells, like possession ALREADY HAVE THE INCAPACITATION TRAIT meaning it straight up doesn't work on higher leveled creatures unless they crit fail their save.
Luckily, there is an easy solution. Just make it so that any attempt to control/charm/dictate your actions fails unless the creature/haunt/hazard is three or more levels above you (or two or more levels above you, whatever, you can fine tune it for power scaling.)
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I mean tbf, if you have encounter with three lower level ghosts with possession, its not like they know you are higher level than them. Unlikely for gm to design that encounter though knowing that
That aside, I agree yeah considering it already has incapacitation effect that its really redundant ability
Sage is giving up having a master save, having a save upgrade effect, and one-action apparition swaps. Constant passive immunity to control effects with no drawbacks would be circumstantial enough that I'd still take Channeler plenty, but I've have a reason to switch.
What we get instead is one action to preemptively assume there will be a control effect targeted at us, then debuff ourselves, for one round of immunity. But, it only (more or less; Command is a control spell without Incapacitate) applies to situations where only a crit fail would apply. It doesn't even apply to on-level spells at odd levels.
I don't feel like there's an actual point to the starter ability. I get that PF2 doesn't offer big prizes for trading away versatility, but it feels like players will take more penalties in total over an AP if they try to use this than if they just crossed their fingers on their will saves.
If the level of immunity isn't improved, it should be a reaction so you don't waste actions and debuff yourself needlessly. If flat immunity to higher-level enemies is out of the question, then you should automatically get the benefits of the incapacitate trait's one-step improvement regardless of your level.
(I know that Sage gets early armor. That's great, it just doesn't feel like what people should be taking Sage for. "Yeah, I'm never gonna use the starter ability, but I get four levels of +2 AC, and that's worth it.")
People saying that the effect stops stuff of a Spell Rank of half your level... did I miss an errata or something somewhere? Because reading my copy it says you're immune to the effects unless the spell rank is more than twice your level. Meaning at level 1 you're immune to up to Rank 2 effects. At level 2 up to Rank 4. By level 6 it would take Rank 12, which doesn't exist as far as I'm aware.
EDIT: Nevermind, I did miss an errata.
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I see no reason to take the Sage path right now. It's pretty much DoA for me, actually.
Even if Apparition's Possession were a generic "avert gaze" type of action, these types of effects just aren't so telegraphed that a character could preemptively spend an action to avoid them. And where they are that's usually a very very very specific monster (i.e., one known for it, not just one that happens to have a command spell handy), and waaaaaay too specific for a level 1 feature. Level 1 features are the ones players use consistently and base their builds around--you can do that with Channeler, but not really with Sage (unless you're like seeking out lower level sirens to fight or something?)
The effect feels more like a rider bonus than a button you press and go "Ooooh yeah" like Rage, or Hunt Prey. I can see pretty much every player at my tables looking at this and asking how they're supposed to know when to use it. or forgetting they have it. Apparition's Possession should be doing something I want to do one or more times every combat, like Channeler. It's a super cool idea and I'd love to see some mechanical heft to it that works with the rest of the class' moment-to-moment gameplay.
Maybe instead of a feat, the baseline could be picking one of the bonuses from Soul Synchronization when you use AP? Maybe each apparition can have a listed bonus if it's your primary apparition and you use AP? Like maybe Stalker in Darkened Boughs gives a bonus to Survival and Stealth, while Witness to Ancient Battles gives crit specialization or a bonus to Athletics. That could be pretty cool, especially given the ability to refocus and pick a different primary. That feels like the Medium to me.
What I'd like to see is some wandering feats that give you more action options and skill bonuses while under the Apparition's Possession while attuned to certain apparitions. I like the idea of my volcano apparition helping me coerce folks or my peaceful farm apparition helping out when making an impression. It should probably be limited to your primary apparition, but if I'm being possessed by the Imposter in Hidden Places I feel like I should be able to sneak.
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So first off, doesn't do ANYTHING against non spells.
While I agree that it's not a great ability, it is worth pointing out it says spells or effects, not just spells.
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Yes, then proceeds to say it only works against spells with a rank and gives no mechanics for non-spell abilities.So first off, doesn't do ANYTHING against non spells.While I agree that it's not a great ability, it is worth pointing out it says spells or effects, not just spells.
OK. I get the idea of pointing out the loophole in the wording and requesting a change to it to make it more clear.
But the conversion between level for effects that come from a creature, and rank for things that come from a spell - that's already pretty standard even before the Remaster. Counteract checks mention it. As does heightening cantrips and focus spells.
Trying to say that the ability is badly designed because the designers intended it to not work for abilities because it only mentions spell rank for comparison is just you deliberately misinterpreting the rule as it is written. It says it works for non-spell abilities. Make rulings that let it work for non-spell abilities.
I mean if we want to be pedantic about what's likely a RAW error, VampByDay has it backwards anyways: since the only things that bypass it are spells of a sufficiently high rank, it means that non-spell effects would never bypass it regardless of level.
Obviously that's probably not right either, but if we want to be stuck on the point that's how it is.