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I'm not sure on this so I figured I'd ask some advice the spell Paizo Inc is used to create a crew for a ship. Several ships e.g. sailing ship can have weapons mounted on them to repel pirates. What I'm wondering is could the unseen crew's ship duties include using those ship weapons in ship to ship combat or would can not fight apply to that as well direct physical combat if your boarded? I'm inclined to say they can because fighting the ship is part of the crews actions and even a simple sailing ship can have more weapons mounted than a party could use. On the other hand the spell does say they can't fight so I'm not sure.
Also before anyone say's it yes you can hire an actual crew but this is in situations where that isn't possible or a good idea.
I’d say, they could help crew the siege weapons but can’t make the actual attack that the crew chief usually does.
It cannot fight, speak, or even defend itself.
The quote speaks for itself.
However, this is the advice forum. And I am somewhat of a permissive GM. I would be inclined to allow the possibility and, at best, let them do so with a -4 penalty due to being completely unsuited for the task as if using an improvised weapon. This might make it all but impossible actually help, but that is why there are 20's on the d20. So... 5% chance > 0% chance.
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It cannot fight, speak, or even defend itself.
The quote speaks for itself.
I would require a separate spell whose sole purpose is to create the crew of a single siege engine with each casting.
With the updated rules for siege engines in Ultimate Combat, you need to know the attack bonus of the leader of the crew to determine if they hit, so a spell that doesn't give that value works badly.
Basing it on Unseen Crew, it would call it something like Unseen Crew (siege engine), the crew would count as having Knowledge (engineering) at 1/2 the caster level + spellcasting bonus, an attack bonus of 1/2 his caster level + spellcasting bonus, and the Siege Engineer feat. BAB would be 0 if that matters for something.
Every casting will create the crew of a specific siege engine. If it is destroyed they would be unable to man a different weapon.
It is possible to make a whole line of spells, each summoning "workers" trained in a specific task.
BTW, I would make a divine version of the spells in that spell line, too, one that summons petitioners for a specific task.
Summon Laborers already exist, but it is too high level when compared to the arcane version.
I have to agree with Melkiador on this. I would let them fill the crew positions, but each siege weapon would require an actual character to fire the weapon. Basically, the unseen crew can increase the number of weapons that can be fired by replacing the second and latter required crew. It would not help with a light ballista as it only requires a crew of 1. It would be useful for a canon or heavy ballista as those both have a crew of more than 1.
That is how I would allow the spell to be used.
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It cannot fight, speak, or even defend itself.The quote speaks for itself.
I would require a separate spell whose sole purpose is to create the crew of a single siege engine with each casting.
With the updated rules for siege engines in Ultimate Combat, you need to know the attack bonus of the leader of the crew to determine if they hit, so a spell that doesn't give that value works badly.
Basing it on Unseen Crew, it would call it something like Unseen Crew (siege engine), the crew would count as having Knowledge (engineering) at 1/2 the caster level + spellcasting bonus, an attack bonus of 1/2 his caster level + spellcasting bonus, and the Siege Engineer feat. BAB would be 0 if that matters for something.
Every casting will create the crew of a specific siege engine. If it is destroyed they would be unable to man a different weapon.
It is possible to make a whole line of spells, each summoning "workers" trained in a specific task.
BTW, I would make a divine version of the spells in that spell line, too, one that summons petitioners for a specific task.
Summon Laborers already exist, but it is too high level when compared to the arcane version.
I;d be inclined to use one spell not multiple ones for general labour, a specific one for siege engines and crafting skills. So you only need one spell to summon farmers, foresters, sailors, etc a level or 2 higher than unseen crew. One spell for ship mounted weapons, another for craft arms and armour or craft gem cutting, etc.
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I;d be inclined to use one spell not multiple ones for general labour, a specific one for siege engines and crafting skills. So you only need one spell to summon farmers, foresters, sailors, etc a level or 2 higher than unseen crew. One spell for ship mounted weapons, another for craft arms and armour or craft gem cutting, etc.
I prefer to have a set of similar spells that require a bit of research to adapt them to different uses. The spell gives a specific skill and can be used by someone that lacks it. In my vision of how magic works that will require some specific preparation.
Summon Laborers is the "generic" version of the spell, but it is a higher-level spell and last way less.
Naturally, as the caster is researching a variant of an existing spell, the cost and time needed to develop it is way less than that of developing a spell from scratch.
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I;d be inclined to use one spell not multiple ones for general labour, a specific one for siege engines and crafting skills. So you only need one spell to summon farmers, foresters, sailors, etc a level or 2 higher than unseen crew. One spell for ship mounted weapons, another for craft arms and armour or craft gem cutting, etc.I prefer to have a set of similar spells that require a bit of research to adapt them to different uses. The spell gives a specific skill and can be used by someone that lacks it. In my vision of how magic works that will require some specific preparation.
Summon Laborers is the "generic" version of the spell, but it is a higher-level spell and last way less.
Naturally, as the caster is researching a variant of an existing spell, the cost and time needed to develop it is way less than that of developing a spell from scratch.
To each their own I just see certain basic roles as making sense of being able to handle without any real effort. Craft weapons or profession sailor require specific skills so it makes sense to me for a spell for them to be unique e.g. Unseen Weaponsmith or Unseen Crew. However a lot of things I feel could be handled by a generic unseen labourer spell.
For example harvesting crops on a farm, chopping down a tree, painting a wall are all things the standard unseen servant can do so I'd have unseen labourer summon a longer lasting one that can perform all these tasks. Essentially its just an upgraded unseen servant that last a long time and can do more due to its strength of 10. Now to be clear while they can harvest crops, milk cattle, slaughter and prepare chickens, perform basic maintainence they wont do this on their own initiative, or stopt. If you set them to milk the cattle every morning they'll milk the cattle every morning needed or not. If you want something to run a farm without your constant input responding to sudden unexpected weather, deciding when to plant based on the weather, stopping milking the cattle when the wean their young, etc. For that you would need a specific unseen farmer variant that can only perform farm work and this is farm work not work on a farm. They could plant and harvest crops, tend animals and the like but wont repair a damaged fence or building because that would require an unseen carpenter or the like.
Similarly the general purpose one could tie of ship lines, steer the ship, etc but unlike unseen crew it wont respond to anything unexpected like a storm or an island. If you have unseen crew they'll sail the ship with a certain degree of "intelligence" such as not sailing it right onto an island shore, the unseen labourer would sail it right up the beach or if the wind shifts while your asleep not respond to prevent the ship from capsizing.
To summarize the unseen labourer can do a wide variety of tasks but it wont do them without your directing them. The specfic variants have a craft/profession/perform skill allowing them to vary their behaviour in the bounds of that skill to achieve vague directions like "Run this farm", sail us west or the like.
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I agree with what you say. As long as the "Unsenn laborers" add arms for work, but the actual "skill" for the check comes from a creature I have no problems with the spell.
I think that we can agree that Unseen servants or equivalent magical constructs are simply the equivalents of well-programmed simple AI that are able to do a core if instructed.
The spell I was envisioning instead is an expert AI a bit above current technology that can make decisions and manage jobs with a lot of variables.
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I agree with what you say. As long as the "Unsenn laborers" add arms for work, but the actual "skill" for the check comes from a creature I have no problems with the spell.
I think that we can agree that Unseen servants or equivalent magical constructs are simply the equivalents of well-programmed simple AI that are able to do a core if instructed.
The spell I was envisioning instead is an expert AI a bit above current technology that can make decisions and manage jobs with a lot of variables.
Seems we're pretty much on the same page except I'd let them make 1/2 level skill checks on untrained skills whether the caster has the skill or not. For me the difference is micromanagement. To give a concrete example. You want to go from Handelstadt to Tamarine.
With unseen crew you step on deck, say "Sail to Tamarine" and they'll handle everything. Undocking the ship, sailing across the ocean, sailing around the uncharted island you run into, responding to the storm that blows up and docking at Tamarine. What they wont do is dock at the last open port before a hundred miles of open ocean to restock on supplies lost in the storm because that isn't their instruction they were told to sail to Tamarine.
With unseen Labororer you need to handle every step of the process. Untie that rope, turn that wheel, secure the anchor, tie that rope onto the wheel, untie that rope, let that rope out, secure that rope, turn the wheel, realize you didn't mention untying from the dock as with a load crack those ropes go taut. They wont dock at the last open port either but they also wont avoid the uncharted isle or respond to the storm without specific instructions and if you do give an order to "ring that bell if anything unusual happens" they'll ring it for every fish jumping out of the water or bird flying by because they are unusual compared to the usual conditions.
The description of the skill Profession states you can supervise helpers. Latter in the description it mentions that untrained laborers (characters without any ranks in profession) earn an average of 1 sp a day. That supports the idea that a person with ranks in a professional skill can supervise untrained labors. I would allow someone to use their own professional skill to manage the unseen laborers the same way they would be able to manage actual laborers.
With unseen crew the caster of the spell does not need to have professional skill sailor.