So I have a player (A unchained Monk Librarian) that wants to make a “Spellbook” of Qinggong Monk Spells that he can cast from the book by paying the relevant Ki costs/being the relevant level for utility and RP purposes.
Would this be overpowered if I allowed it?
If not how should I go about managing the “Transcription Cost” for each spell/the cost of the book itself?
So the Monk Automatically gains the ki abilites each level, he simply has a larger list to choose from (they replace ones he would normally get)
That being said, your player could use a "spellbook" as flavor, just simply state he has his ki powers in his spellbook and casts them from it, no game mechanics need to be altered or modified. in fact if he were to "lose" his spellbook during the game, he might "discover" that he never needed it to begin with.
So the Monk Automatically gains the ki abilites each level, he simply has a larger list to choose from (they replace ones he would normally get)
That being said, your player could use a "spellbook" as flavor, just simply state he has his ki powers in his spellbook and casts them from it, no game mechanics need to be altered or modified. in fact if he were to "lose" his spellbook during the game, he might "discover" that he never needed it to begin with.
My player wants to pick up more of the classic ki powers as he levels up his monk, while spending his characters money to have access to a "Monk Spell list". Only picking from the Spells turned monk powers from the Qinggong list. Still using his own ki to cast them.
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So I have a player (A unchained Monk Librarian) that wants to make a “Spellbook” of Qinggong Monk Spells that he can cast from the book by paying the relevant Ki costs/being the relevant level for utility and RP purposes.
Would this be overpowered if I allowed it?
Let me make sure we're understanding this correctly. He wants to have a "spellbook" with all/some of the Qinggong spell-like abilities that duplicate spells? So from the 4th-level Qinggong list it could include augury, barkskin, burst of adrenaline, burst of insight, calm spirit, feather step, hydraulic push, ki arrow, message, psychic reading, scorching ray, and true strike. But not Death from Above or Ki Stand, etc.?
Then he can cast any of those by pulling out his book and spending the ki points for that SLA?
And he gets to access all those just by giving up slow fall?
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It's definitely a power increase. Not many Qinggong monks are going to give up diamond body for a self-only restoration because you won't need that very often so you choose a more commonly useful option like ki leech. But if you can write both in your book you might as well.
Is it overpowered? Nothing is overpowered if you are balancing your campaign for its existence. It's way better than the alternative for the monk, but maybe still OK on that front. To me the bigger issue is that it's a better way of casting spells than a spellcaster. A wizard can have many more spells in his book but has to choose which ones to prepare well in advance of casting. A sorcerer has more spells on her list to choose from but would have less overall spells "known" than this monk. This is the best of both worlds.
Maybe you could let him make this book but then require him to "prepare" his spell-likes every day with an hour's meditation, just like an arcanist. One SLA per ability he had given up. So if he gave up slow fall and high jump he could prepare two SLAs from the 4th-level ki power list. Giving up wholeness of body would be another SLA from the 4th or 6th-level ki powers.
It's still much better than the base Qinggong but it's not stepping on the toes of the casters as much.
If not how should I go about managing the “Transcription Cost” for each spell/the cost of the book itself?
Same cost as if a wizard was scribing it. If the specific spell is not on the wizard spell list, use the lowest spell level of a 9-level caster (cleric, druid, psychic). If it's not on any of those, move on to the 6-level casters, then the 4-level casters.
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Whoops, I missed the word "Unchained" in your post. Never mind the stuff about "giving up" powers.
I would still use the "prepare spell-likes every day" approach. One slot for each time he had taken the Qinggong power ki power. If he took Qinggong power at 4th, sudden speed at 6th, and Qinggong power again at 8th he would have two "slots" to prepare. One 4th-level Qinggong SLA, one 8th-level or lower SLA.
Still much better than the base unchained monk.
Personally I think this is too powerful and is not appropriate for a monk. The monk is about self-perfection, no accumulating power. Their powers are more similar to a spontaneous caster than a prepared caster. The idea that they can change out what they have learned seems wrong for a monk. Relying on a written spell book also seems to be a poor fit.
Some classes have a feat that allows them to pick up more of their class features. Oracles have extra revelation. Maybe something like that would be a better way to go in gaining more Ki powers. I would not allow swapping them out like your players seems to want. Even that may be a too powerful.
Personally I think this is too powerful and is not appropriate for a monk. The monk is about self-perfection, no accumulating power. Their powers are more similar to a spontaneous caster than a prepared caster. The idea that they can change out what they have learned seems wrong for a monk. Relying on a written spell book also seems to be a poor fit.
One of Irori's Spheres of Influence is knowledge. So an Irori Librarian that is delving deeper into the mysteries of Qinggong magic's I do not feel is a great stretch.
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I would look at the ninja's forgotten trick and bard masterpiece arrowsong's lament for starting inspiration. Basicly adding a new ki power that says "pay an extra 1(or more?) ki and a full round action to activate a ki power from your books." Or so.
One of Irori's Spheres of Influence is knowledge. So an Irori Librarian that is delving deeper into the mysteries of Qinggong magic's I do not feel is a great stretch.Personally I think this is too powerful and is not appropriate for a monk. The monk is about self-perfection, no accumulating power. Their powers are more similar to a spontaneous caster than a prepared caster. The idea that they can change out what they have learned seems wrong for a monk. Relying on a written spell book also seems to be a poor fit.
A monk is not a divine caster and its powers do not come from a deity. The fact that a monk worships a particular god does not change that. Does the sorcerer who worships Irori get to use a spell book but still keep his sorcerer spell slots?
Maybe a different class would be a better fit. A warpriest with the sacred fist archetype could work. Then it would just be a matter of changing the warpriest to use the wizards spell book instead of knowing all divine spells.
Allowing a monk access to all Ki powers by being able to change them out is too powerful.
So I have a player (A unchained Monk Librarian) that wants to make a “Spellbook” of Qinggong Monk Spells that he can cast from the book by paying the relevant Ki costs/being the relevant level for utility and RP purposes.
How is that supposed to work? Do they need to have the book in hand to cast any Qinggong SLA? Does it take an extra action? That would prevent a bunch from working (the immediate or swift action ones, mainly the Thought Shield and Mental Barrier lines and Cold ice Strike), and nerf some others like Dragon's Breath or Placebo Effect. Meanwhile, it would strengthen the Monk's utility capability by grantign free access to SLAs like Remove Disease and Neutralize Poison.
If you have it work like prepared casters, that basically gives them a bunch of additional ki powers, and thus it should come with an additional cost. Like losing all ki powers, for example.
Maybe a different class would be a better fit. A warpriest with the sacred fist archetype could work.
If anything, the Living Grimoire Inquisitor!
Inquisitors don’t make good monk type characters, or I would have suggested the Living Grimoire. Maybe that archetype could be adapted to a warpriest.
Thank you all for your input.
I will be adding an Campaign flavored Item that will allow the monk to add 1 level appropriate Qinggong after 1 hour of daily study. 2 spells at level 10 and 3 spells at level 15. Cast at the ki cost +1.
Something similar to pages of spell knowledge for monks could also work. Each scroll could store a single Qinggon power. The character’s book would be a collection of scrolls.
how about implementing a variant to this feat that work with Qinggong's sla?
just make sure the powers replaced are of the same level. (i would also make it 10 min per sla level, to match up with open slot of spellcasters)
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how about implementing a variant to this feat that work with Qinggong's sla?
Ooh, that’s a good one. The rogue’s major magic tops out at 1st level magic spells, though.
How about one feat that lets your monk use a spell book to replace a 4-8 level qinggong SLA (that could be taken at equivalent level). Another one for 10-14, and a third for 16-20. Each is a prerequisite for the next.
I think that solution would be perfectly within normal power levels.
just make sure the powers replaced are of the same level. (i would also make it 10 min per sla level, to match up with open slot of spellcasters)
Yeah, that sounds good, too. Again, the rogue tops out at 1st-level spells so a flat 10 minutes was fine for that. But qinggong powers can duplicate some fairly high-level spells, so longer study makes sense.
Good idea zza, ni.
idk about spreading it over 3 feats. that's kind of a hefty price for basically rearranging class abilities( he doesn't get extra ones he replace one for another).
1 feat feel enough of a price to allow him to do that along with the time it takes to do so.
unless taking the other feats add something else. like reduced ki cost, but i wouldn't want to play around with that too much.
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It’s definitely hefty, but it’s also well in-line with comparable feat chains that deal with spells of increasing levels.
For groups who hate “feat taxes” and use things like elephant-in-the-room rules (giving martials a bunch of feats automatically) then one feat would be the choice. But I could see the standard-Improved-Greater chain suggested above actually being published by Paizo.
you missed my point about the power balance.
with stuff like improved and greater feats (say the planner infusion or eldritch heritage) each feat add a new ability use beyond what was before to use. more sla to use per day and of higher levels etc. what this feat does is exchange the sla he already have with another. he doesn't grow any stronger by switching his level 14 sla from one sla to another. he end up with the same power level as a another, same level monk, who took that ability to begin with, only he wasted a feat (or three in your case) to get there.
it's what i said above, that if you use three feats he need to get something added to it (like decreased ki cost or the more like add ki to his pool or something) if you force him to take three feats to be able to only change his class abilities he might as well retrain and at least keep his feats open for something else.
on the other hand one feat is just about right to give him the 'power' to take an hour or so to reflect and be able to do what another monk can, by loosing his older abilities. the feat let him switch into a different aspect of the same power level (minus the less feat that the other monk will have above him, but again that monk can't adept so well)
especially with feat trees, the more you invest in them the higher the outcome should be.. a good buildup feat tree would be the five feats of spit venom tree. check it out. each feat add to the overall ability of the character and add not only options but firepower to the previous feats.
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i used to teach 3.5 D&D in youth centers. and we speak a different language here then English. in our language feats and skills use words that mean about the same. i had to explain to my players the difference. and what it came up to is:
skills is something (unless the skill is trained only) anyone can try and do. even without any ranks invested. you can try and bluff\stealth\swim with no ranks.
feats is something that if you do not have you can not use them. without say, wild casting a druid can't use words while shape shifted. don't have leadership you get no followers or cohort etc.
it should be obvious with each feat what you gained from the you before you had it and after. unlike rising stealth from rank 3 to 4 which might not be that noticeable having a feat and not heaving it should make, not a step up in power to the character, but open a new option that was not open before. and this should be true to EACH feat by itself.
he doesn't grow any stronger by switching his level 14 sla from one sla to another. he end up with the same power level as a another, same level monk, who took that ability to begin with, only he wasted a feat (or three in your case) to get there.
Not for the highest level SLA, but what the feat does allow is to train out of the Thought Shield and Mental Barrier lines of spells. Normally, it's impossible to have both always the highest level version, and not having useless ki powers, but the feat fixes that. A Monk could take the highest version and later replace it when a higher level version becomes aviable. Like, at 14th level take Thought Shield V, and retrain Thought Shield IV to Dust Form.
If the GM lets you retrain ki powers, this is not really relevant, but because Unchained came after Ultimate Campaign, RAW that option doesn't exist.
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you missed my point about the power balance.
with stuff like improved and greater feats (say the planner infusion or eldritch heritage) each feat add a new ability use beyond what was before to use. more sla to use per day and of higher levels etc. what this feat does is exchange the sla he already have with another. he doesn't grow any stronger by switching his level 14 sla from one sla to another. he end up with the same power level as a another, same level monk, who took that ability to begin with, only he wasted a feat (or three in your case) to get there…
Oh, I didn’t miss it. What I said (with added bolding) was “But I could see the standard-Improved-Greater chain suggested above actually being published by Paizo.”
When we’re talking about what could have ended up “in an official book” power balance is referenced to existing material. And in the cases when Paizo published feats that affected spells or other magical abilities they would often use stepped feat chains. The most direct analogy that springs to mind is Split Hex and Split Major Hex. Need an additional feat to be able to split stronger hexes. So additional feat(s) for our monk to be able to change stronger SLAs.
I’m not saying I necessarily agree with that design philosophy. But it’s how Paizo did things. They would not have published a single feat that let you change an SLA of any level. Two tiered feats? Maybe. Three? Probably.
I have to agree that the ability to swap out an ability that is not currently useful for one that solves a current problem is a big increase in power.
Let’s say that instead of a monk we are talking about a sorcerer. Would a sorcerer that could swap out their spells knows from a spell book, but keep all other aspects of the sorcerer the same be more powerful than a normal sorcerer? They still can cast any known spell and have the same number of spell slots as other sorcerers but can change the spells known on a daily basis. That sorcerer would be a lot more powerful.
When they created the arcanist class they gave it the worst of the spell progression of both classes. They have the spells known of a sorcerer, but the spell slots are actually less than those of a wizard.
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I would look at cost being the same as a page of spell knowledge if you want to make it a magic item? That exists specifically for sorcerer's to add more spells to their spell book. Also maybe take it as a favored class option? I know some classes get those for extra class abilities, something like 1 per 4 levels taken or so?
Sorcerers get a lot more spells known than monks get Ki abilities. Pricing it the same a page of spell knowledge is probably way too cheap. Sorcerers get multiple new spells known every level; unchained monks gain a new KI power every 2 levels. I would probably price them about 4x as expensive as a page of spell knowledge.