Playing AV, and our GM says no NPC in Otari can transfer runes. Can (or should) I convince her otherwise?


Abomination Vaults


Hi, everyone! Longtime lurker, first time poster. Sorry if this is long!

We’re playing through Abomination Vaults with a party of Champion, Ranger, Cleric, and Psychic, and we’re most of the way through the 3rd floor. It’s been a blast, and our GM is wonderful. AV is all of our first forays into Pathfinder, and it's been even better than 5E.

I am curious about something, though. She's told us that there isn’t anywhere in Otari that can transfer runes from any of the equipment we’ve found. She says the only way we can do it is if someone takes Magical Crafting, which none of us really had wanted to take when we reach level 4.

She says that in the book, none of the locations in Otari — garrison, blacksmith, or other vendors — have listed in their stat blocks that they can transfer runes, so she says they can’t do it. And she also says we can’t buy any magical items in town, so we’ll have to use those weapons as-is or just sell them.

So right now we have (slight early-game AV spoilers) a few +1 melee weapons, a spare +1 potency rune, and we just found a +1 striking melee weapon. But the Champion wants to keep their reach weapon, and the Ranger uses ranged weapons, so neither of them really want to use the weapons we’ve found. Is it normal for the GM to expect them to change their weapons to something they don’t want to use?

It feels a bit strange to me, but I don’t know how to express it to her. We’re all pretty new to the system, and none of us want to be contrarians. But I keep reading on here that it’s common to transfer runes at weapon vendors. And I also have read that 2E is balanced around martials getting fundamental runes on whatever weapon they’re using at certain levels, but I can’t seem to find any official sources for either of those two statements. Does anyone know if there’s somewhere in the rulebook that says all vendors can transfer runes, or anywhere that it says martials should definitely have +1 runes by a certain level?

We had gotten into a pretty good groove, but now that we’re almost to level 4, fights have gotten really hard. We've barely been surviving, and I feel like us not having the right equipment might be part of that. I love our GM, and she’s doing an amazing job, and I don’t want to be one of those annoying players who question their GM all the time. Any thoughts or suggestions on what to do or say?


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You should certainly try.

Fundamental Runes - both for weapons and armor - are critical for the math of the game to work out. The game will quickly become very not fun if the players are prevented from keeping on track for their runes on the weapons and armor that they are able to use. The variant rule Automatic Bonus Progression shows the levels at which the characters are expected to have those runes by.

This is also the very reason why runes are transferrable. So that loot for a pre-written and published adventure doesn't have to try and account for all of the various possible different weapon choices of the millions of player characters that are going to be playing the campaign. They can instead just give whatever weapons with the level appropriate runes on them and the players can transfer them onto the weapons that they actually want to use.


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As for an in-game lore reason to suggest for who could do the transferring, I would suggest the Dawnflower Library, the Stone Ring Pond, or Wrin's Wonders would have someone there who has the crafting skill and magical skill necessary to transfer runes. Even if the stat block of the location does not specify that.


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*nods*

Another thing to note is that the rune transfer requirement of having Magical Crafting was added in errata after Abomination Vaults was written.


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If necessary, make a trip to Absalom and find someone there. It's not too far, and you shouldn't be on a tight schedule.


NPCs transferring runes is not a well defined thing in the system as a whole. Magical Crafting was added as an errata, and the costs of hiring someone to transfer the rune are not specified anywhere. (I don't mean the 10% material cost. The NPCs labor cost isn't defined anywhere.) And unfortunately, the most likely NPC to be able to transfer runes is a drunken cad, so you might not want to rely on him. I ruled he could and would do the deed, but you certainly could rule otherwise.

Your GM is within her rights to say no one can transfer the runes. Unfortunately, that means you'll either need to adapt to the weapons you find, die, or... Take a week long break from adventuring to travel to Absolam and hire someone there. I'd point these options out to your GM and let her pick her poison. Either she can give you a local source, or she can accept that the pacing is going to take a hit. (Actually, even with a local source it would still take a day per rune, so that ship has maybe sailed.)


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Having run AV, I would say your GM is wrong. I believe there are a number of NPCs that could do that, and Absalom is very close by. All of Eoran's suggestions work. There's also Morbilant and the blacksmith. Any of those would be viable, IMO. There could be more.

I think the more troublesome issue is why the GM is making it so hard. Rune transfer, as mentioned above, is fundamental to the system. On top of that, RAW you can find common items up to a settlement level, including magic items, in a town, and Otari is level 4, with a caveat that because it sees a lot of adventurers, you can get consumables up to level 8 there.

It could be a new to PF2E experience issue though. Is your group new to the system?


breithauptclan wrote:
Fundamental Runes - both for weapons and armor - are critical for the math of the game to work out. The game will quickly become very not fun if the players are prevented from keeping on track for their runes on the weapons and armor that they are able to use.
Lia Wynn wrote:
Having run AV, I would say your GM is wrong. I believe there are a number of NPCs that could do that, and Absalom is very close by. All of Eoran's suggestions work. There's also Morbilant and the blacksmith. Any of those would be viable, IMO.

Thanks for the answers! We're all new to P2E, and I have talked with our GM about it, but she asked if there were any official sources pointing to the fact that these places could transfer runes or that we even need them to make the math work, as @breithauptclan mentions. Do you guys have an idea of where I could find something in official sources that backs that up?


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kimber_like_timber wrote:
I have talked with our GM about it, but she asked if there were any official sources pointing to the fact that these places could transfer runes or that we even need them to make the math work, as @breithauptclan mentions. Do you guys have an idea of where I could find something in official sources that backs that up?

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=1356

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=1161
If these and statements of people here wouldn't be enough I don't know what else is. Why is she so hesitant?


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I'm pretty the CRB says that fundamental runes are necessary but can't recall where. However the automatic bonus progression lays out the game's expectations pretty clearly.


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kimber_like_timber wrote:
any official sources ... that we even need them to make the math work,

Here is why the math doesn't work.

Enemy Hit Points goes up each level. If your weapon attacks don't increase from striking runes to keep up, then the amount of rounds that it takes for your party to defeat an enemy is going to increase for each level that you gain.

Enemy Armor Class also goes up each level. But note how it doesn't increase completely linearly. Those +2 per level increases are due to expected increases in accuracy that the players are going to be getting - such as increasing weapon proficiency, increasing ability bonus, ... and increasing item bonus from weapon runes.

So without weapon runes, the party's ability to defeat enemies is going to get relatively lower as the campaign progresses. It will take more rounds of combat for the players to win a battle.

On the other side of the round:

Enemy Attack Bonus also goes up each level. And again, it has occasional +2 jumps which correspond to when the players are going to be getting increased proficiency in their armor, or increased item bonuses from their armor runes.

Enemy damage also goes up with level, but player Hit Points also go up with level without any item investment.

So without armor runes, the party's ability to not get hit or crit will go down - which means that the enemies will take fewer rounds of combat for the enemies to win a battle.

Combining both of those - If the enemies can drop the party in fewer rounds than the party can drop the enemies... That is what we call a TPK.


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kimber_like_timber wrote:
any official sources pointing to the fact that these places could transfer runes

Well, the FAQ (errata) added the requirement to have Magical Crafting in order to transfer runes in the 4th printing changes. I don't remember exactly when that was, but it was definitely after Abomination Vaults was written.

So when Abomination Vaults and the settlement stat blocks were written, all that Transferring Runes said was:

Quote:
You can transfer runes between two items. This uses the Craft activity. You can either move one rune from one item to another or swap a rune on one item with a rune on the other item (which can be a runestone).

And the Craft activity only requires being Trained in Crafting.

So the shops and people in Otari in Abomination Vaults were written with the assumption that any of the villagers who were trained in crafting (such as the blacksmith workers) would be able to transfer runes.


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There is also The First Rule, and in the General Rules both 'The GM has the final say' and the 'Ambiguous Rules rule'.

The GM does not need special or formal permission to fix errors in the adventures or the game rules.

Pathfinder2e is not intended to be played with the GM and the players having an adversarial relationship. The GM does not need to go out of their way to make the game harder. The game does an excellent job of being challenging all by itself.

Liberty's Edge

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The creators of PF2 went out of their way by creating Runes, which were not a thing in PF1, to make sure PCs were not saddled with magic weapons they would not use.

Nothing in AV says that this very basic premise of the game does not hold true.

They just did not write it in the book so that the GM could let any NPC they liked doing the transfer so that it would best fit their story. Not to make things harder on the PCs.

Your GM has nothing to fear from letting any NPC she wants transfer the Runes.

As stated above, it will actually allow her to run the AP as written.


Farien wrote:
kimber_like_timber wrote:
any official sources pointing to the fact that these places could transfer runes

Well, the FAQ (errata) added the requirement to have Magical Crafting in order to transfer runes in the 4th printing changes. I don't remember exactly when that was, but it was definitely after Abomination Vaults was written.

So when Abomination Vaults and the settlement stat blocks were written, all that Transferring Runes said was:

Quote:
You can transfer runes between two items. This uses the Craft activity. You can either move one rune from one item to another or swap a rune on one item with a rune on the other item (which can be a runestone).

And the Craft activity only requires being Trained in Crafting.

So the shops and people in Otari in Abomination Vaults were written with the assumption that any of the villagers who were trained in crafting (such as the blacksmith workers) would be able to transfer runes.

Weeeell... TBH, I don't think that logic holds. Errata is often used to make an ability function like the designers always meant it to. It is possible the Paizo teams all thought you already needed Magical Crafting to transfer runes. (The absence of a rule is harder to spot during the editing process, especially if it is one you assume is obvious.)

But it also isn't like we have full statblocks for most of the NPCs. We have them for like two in the entire town. I see reason fo assume Morblint DOESN'T have Magical Crafting either.

And again, regardless, I think the GM should let this happen.


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Paizo has provided full stat blocks for five Otari NPCs

Otari NPC Stats

Eleukas
Gristleburst Crafting +8
Wendlyn
Lisavet
Morlibint Crafting +10

The Morlibint stat block was published on November 11, 2020, well before the 'magical crafting' errata were released with the 4th printing in December 2022.


Remember NPCs don't actually use PC mechanics, while I like to use pc mechanics as guidelines PF2e isn't trying to simulate everything.

That said, I disagree that all runes must be transferrable. If players lack crafting and the town doesn't have a high enough settlement or npc level i have let my players just use what they got in loot. Sometimes it has meant things weren't fully optimal, other times they took trips to get stuff done or made custom orders that were slower or more costly to fulfill.

That said, AV is a low level for the most part. The first round of fundamental runes should be transferable in town imo. But if a player wanted to transfer a flaming rune they would probably be directed to absalom at my table.


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Captain Morgan wrote:
Weeeell... TBH, I don't think that logic holds. Errata is often used to make an ability function like the designers always meant it to. It is possible the Paizo teams all thought you already needed Magical Crafting to transfer runes. (The absence of a rule is harder to spot during the editing process, especially if it is one you assume is obvious.)

No, it isn't completely irrefutable proof.

But I find it very, very likely. I think it is very possible that rules creation team - at least the one in charge of crafting mechanics - felt that it was clear that Magical Crafting was always needed from the beginning. But I think it much more likely that the campaign writers thought that Trained in Crafting was all that was needed. Just like all of us players did.


breithauptclan wrote:
Trained in Crafting was all that was needed. Just like all of us players did.

They clarified it, but magical crafting was always required RAW. It required the craft activity and only changed the duration and price components.

It was most certainly not something that "all us players did"


I agree that it wasn't universally understood by any stretch. But ultimately, I also don't think NPC and settlement stat blocks are made with these sorts of technicalities in mind. I agree with Grognard that runes at or below Otari's settlement level should be transferable.

Liberty's Edge

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kimber_like_timber wrote:
And she also says we can’t buy any magical items in town, so we’ll have to use those weapons as-is or just sell them.

If this is just a preference on your GM’s part in terms of magic item sales, I guess you’re just stuck, but from the perspective of the rules, she’s arguably wrong. Arguably because the text I’m about to cite comes from the Gamemastery Guide, not from the Core Rulebook, but I’m satisfied that it’s intended to be part of the game.

Marketplaces states that “In a given settlement, a character can usually purchase any common item (including formulas, alchemical items, and magic items) that is of the same or lower level than the settlement’s.” Otari is a 4th Level settlement. There’s some further talk in Markeplaces about items of the highest level available, but the game expects Common items, including magic items, of at least level 1-3 be available.

I don’t think this is actually a spoiler, but just in case…:
Further, Otari’s settlement stat block, right in the first volume of the AP has a special quality “Trinket Traders” which states that “Otari has a long tradition of catering to adventurers, and consumable items of up to a level 10 are available for sale in its shops.” Nothing they’re excluding magic items, which have to make up a decent chunk of level 10 consumable items.

There’s also a strong argument to be made that “a long tradition of catering to adventurers” would include having someone capable of transferring runes, at least within the level range of the settlement.

Liberty's Edge

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On the topic of magic item purchases, this thread inspired me to take a glance at the Otari Gazeteer article in the first volume of Abomination vaults, and without risking spoilers as to the specifics, there is at least one location specifically called out as selling magic items. I wouldn’t be shocked if, as I read farther, there are more. So this may just be a case of a GM who doesn’t like the idea of magic items being offered for sale.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm running it and I just gave Carmen Rajani the magical crafting feat. He's a blacksmith and his entire trade is crafting weapons. In a world where anyone over a level 1 adventurer would want rune infused weapons, it feels weird for someone making a living crafting weapons to not take the magical crafting feat.

Plus he's an important NPC in the town so it gives the players more chances to role play with him and get to know him.

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