Runic Charge + Pounce


Rules Questions


Hi guys!

While working on a new character I stumbled upon the feat Runic Charge:

As long as two of your hands are free, you can cast a spell with a range of touch and deliver the spell to a single target as part of a charge action. yadayadayada

Do I get the additional attacks from pounce while using Runic Charge?

The way I read it, it seems pretty obvious that you do, since it references the charge action, which is a game-mechanical term that explicitely allows pounce. But some guy over at r/Pathfinder_RPG made a pretty big fuss about it not working together based on how the feat text is structured.

Since I am not a native English speaker, it would be awesome if someone could clarify this for me.


"Pounce (Ex)
When a creature with this special attack charges, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability)."
I think we're all in agreeance that the full attack replaces the regular charge attack and isn't made in addition, right? It's not actually written, but no GM would rule otherwise.

The same then applies to Runic Charge - the touch attack to deliver the spell replaces the regular attack when you use the feat.

In general, you can't replace something twice. Since as addressed above the "replace" part is not actually written into the pounce description, we don't know exactly how it works. A GM might let you replace the touch attack from Runic Charge with the full attack from pounce, but in no way do you get both, as neither effects grants bonus attacks. So in order to deliver the touch spell, you'd have to use an unarmed strike or natural attack, or have to wait until next round and spend a standard action then.


Derklord wrote:

"Pounce (Ex)

When a creature with this special attack charges, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability)."
I think we're all in agreeance that the full attack replaces the regular charge attack and isn't made in addition, right? It's not actually written, but no GM would rule otherwise.

Actually, with all due respect, I am not in agreeance, because of the way the Charge action and Full-Attack action are worded:

From Charge:

"Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge."

From Full Attack:

"If you get more than one attack per round [...], you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. [...] After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks."

So let's connect all of those statements to give an educated guess on what is happening during a pounce charge:

1) You take the charge action an thus get a single attack at the end of the charge.

2) You have Pounce, thus you can decide whether to let it be with that one attack or to make your additional attacks after you have made your first attack. Because you always get that one first attack, no matter what ability you have.

Why's that? IMHO, both Charge and Full-Attack separate your set of iterative attacks into one initial attack and a set of "extra" (Charge) or "additional" (Full-Attack) attacks.

On a normal Charge you only get to make that one initial attack, whereas Pounce "unlocks" additional attacks. The fact that you can still decide on making a full-attack after your initial attack succeeded/failed on a regular turn (no charge) in combination with the word "can" in the Pounce description leads me to believe that you can indeed decide to make a full-attack after making your initial charge attack. which would mean that you don't replace your charge attack with a full-attack, but rather unlock additional attacks after the first.

This would mean that Runic Charge may replace the initial charge attack with a touch attack, but you may still use your remaining iteratives afterwards.

EDIT: RAW, Runic Charge would give you a free spell + touch attack on top of your charge attack, because it says "as part of a charge action", a charge action is defined as giving you movement + attack and there is no text about replacing the normal chharge attack. It would only be fair to assume, though, that they meant you to cast the spell while charging and then slap it onto your opponent in place of the regular attack (which IMHO wouldn't prevent you to follow up with additional iteratives).

The Exchange

Runic Charge is another one of those rules elements that didn't get that much discussion during the PF1 lifecycle but years later we are realizing has flawed language.

As you point out, the way it is worded can lead to a conclusion that you get to make an extra attack even if you don't have pounce.

Runic Charge wrote:
...you can cast a spell with a range of touch and deliver the spell to a single target as part of a charge action...
Instead of wrote:
...you can cast a spell with a range of touch and deliver the spell to a single target in place of the normal attack at the end of a charge action...
Or wrote:
...you can cast a spell with a range of touch and deliver the spell to a single target in addition to the normal attack at the end of a charge action...

Is it intended to give an extra attack? I don't think so. Usually if an ability is intended to give extra attacks it explicitly says so. The author *should* have made that clear one way or the other, but they didn't. We aren't going to come up with a "right" answer - one side can't prove the other "wrong." (Not that it will stop some people from declaring that anyone who takes the other side is wrong.) So the only good faith discussion we can have is to state how we would rule and why.

I'd rule that if you have pounce and take this feat you give up your first attack to make the touch attack, but can take your iteratives. That's the most straightforward combining of "make a touch attack at the end of the charge" with "take a full-attack at the end of the charge." If you are pouncing with natural weapons (wild shaped) you would have to give up one of your primary attacks.

Natural Weapons?:
I'm not actually sure on this one, but I think that if you were pouncing with natural weapons, all your natural attacks would count as secondary. Touch attacks count as being "armed," right?


Dairfaron wrote:
On a normal Charge you only get to make that one initial attack, whereas Pounce "unlocks" additional attacks. The fact that you can still decide on making a full-attack after your initial attack succeeded/failed on a regular turn (no charge) in combination with the word "can" in the Pounce description leads me to believe that you can indeed decide to make a full-attack after making your initial charge attack. which would mean that you don't replace your charge attack with a full-attack, but rather unlock additional attacks after the first.

Since you seem to have gotten hung up on the "you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks", let's take a step back and look at how the full-attack action works outside of pounce.

"Full Attack
If you get more than one attack per round [...] you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks." CRB pg. 187

Full Attack (or "Full-Attack Action", the terms are synonymous) is a seperate action incompatible with the standard attack action. It is not a rule option to tack on more attacks to a standard attack, but rather you have to chose to use this one instead of the other before you make your first attack. Otherwise, you could use Vital Strike et al. while making all your attacks.

I don't see why pounce should be any different - you can chose whether to use it or not, but you have to decide to take the full attack instead of the single attack before making the first attack. That you can abandon a full attack doesn't change anything, as you still need to have initially chosen which action to take.
When you chose to make a full attack, be it with pounce or because you haven't moved yet, you commit to the rules of the full-attack action, and those don't allow making a spell's touch attack. Runic Charge changes the rules of Charge, but not the rules of the full-attack action.

Shadow Lodge

Dairfaron wrote:

Hi guys!

While working on a new character I stumbled upon the feat Runic Charge:

As long as two of your hands are free, you can cast a spell with a range of touch and deliver the spell to a single target as part of a charge action. yadayadayada

Do I get the additional attacks from pounce while using Runic Charge?

The way I read it, it seems pretty obvious that you do, since it references the charge action, which is a game-mechanical term that explicitely allows pounce. But some guy over at r/Pathfinder_RPG made a pretty big fuss about it not working together based on how the feat text is structured.

Since I am not a native English speaker, it would be awesome if someone could clarify this for me.

As a native English speaker, allow me to assure you that Runic Charge is, in fact, a really poorly written feat.

I assume the RAI is for the user to cast and deliver a spell with a 'standard action or less' cast time as part of a charge instead of any other attacks you might otherwise get from a charge, but the actual text makes no mention of casting time or sacrificing your 'normal' attack(s).


@Derklord: I definitely get your point about not getting VS on a full-attack. Still, I'm not convinced that the full-attack from pounce replaces the single attack at the end of a charge instead of just adding to it, because it is just part of the charge and not a separate action to begin with.

Since all we can do is making educated guesses about possible RAI, I'll just ask my GM. The chance to ever get an official clarification for a 1E splatbooks feat is sadly zero.

Thanks for your input guys!


1 person marked this as a favorite.

RAI can be debated all day long. Could Runic Charge be worded better? Probably, yes, if you have reservations about what it provides. Is it clear enough in terms of what it offers, though? I think so.

"As long as two of your hands are free, you can cast a spell with a range of touch and deliver the spell to a single target as part of a [special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action]."

The attack is never replaced. You are simply limited in terms of what is used to attack: two of your hands have to be free.

Now, add Pounce:

"As long as two of your hands are free, you can cast a spell with a range of touch and deliver the spell to a single target as part of a [special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability) during the action]."

So I would offer that the issue isn't clarity. It's that what Runic Charge offers as early as 5th level is, relative to other feats available at that point, is really powerful. That naturally encourages us to question the author's intent, when we probably should just be looking at balance.


Dairfaron wrote:

@Derklord: I definitely get your point about not getting VS on a full-attack. Still, I'm not convinced that the full-attack from pounce replaces the single attack at the end of a charge instead of just adding to it, because it is just part of the charge and not a separate action to begin with.

Since all we can do is making educated guesses about possible RAI, I'll just ask my GM. The chance to ever get an official clarification for a 1E splatbooks feat is sadly zero.

Thanks for your input guys!

Full attack and charge/pounce attacks are not really equivalent in the comparison you are making.

I can make a full attack (with 3 or more attacks available to me). Take 2 of them, then decide not to take any others.
Likewise I could charge/pounce with 5 attacks, and take 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 of my attacks. I am not required to make all of the attacks.
I could even make a charge (not pounce), then decide not to actually make an attack at the end (if some readied action or other event occurs such that I change my mind about attacking). I'd still take the -2 to AC for the turn.
Full attack (and only full attack) has a unique option in that if I have only taken one attack, I can abandon the rest of my attacks and take a move action.
I cannot of course charge/pounce, attack a single time, then take a move action.


bbangerter wrote:


I cannot of course charge/pounce, attack a single time, then take a move action.

Sure you can't, I agree with you 100%. My point was just that all abilities that somehow have to do with making a full-attack distinguish between the initial attack and additional attacks. Thus my conclusion being that pounce wouldn't replace the initial charge attack but grant extra attacks on top.

I'm sorry that it came across like it did.


Dairfaron wrote:
My point was just that all abilities that somehow have to do with making a full-attack distinguish between the initial attack and additional attacks.

But... this isn't the case.

Full attack is the only one that distinguishes that after you make your first attack you can cancel the rest of the action and replace it with something else. A full attack is the ONLY one that distinguishes the first attack from the additional attacks.

Pounce wrote:


When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).

It doesn't say you get to make the normal attack from charge, then make the rest of the attacks you would get in a full attack. It justs says you can make a full attack at the end of your charge.

Other abilities also do not make a distinction of the first attack from the rest of the attacks. Magus spell combat just states the character gets to make all of their attacks + cast a spell. etc.

Pointing out that a full attack has a special rule regarding its first attack doesn't strengthen your argument, because none of the other rules work based on that detail.


Dairfaron wrote:
Still, I'm not convinced that the full-attack from pounce replaces the single attack at the end of a charge instead of just adding to it

If full attack would merely add to something, you wouldn't be making a full attack until your second attack. That would mean that you can never trigger Manyshot, as it requires both a full-attack action and the first attack. Therefore, your reading of the full-attack action cannot be correct.

You act as if the attack action rules had a section to continue attacking, whereas the reality is that the full-attack action rules have a section on prematurely ending it.
There is absolutely no language in the rules that talks about adding additional attacks to an existing action.

And yes, this is all a RAI discussion. Strict RAW, a creature with Runic CHarge and Pounce would get the standard single charge attack, plus a full attack, plus the touch attck for the spell, because both pounce and Runic Charge were written by people who evidently don't understand how to write rules. Pounce especially is horribly written, because not only does it not tell you that you don't get the regular charge attack, it also doesn't say against which targets you can make the attacks from the full attack, or whether they get the +2 to attack rolls. Hell, it doesn't even say when you can make the full attack!

Liberty's Edge

Pounce was written for monsters. So, the blame falls on the guys that made it available to players without addressing the issues that would cause.
Runic charge compound on that.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Pounce was written for monsters. So, the blame falls on the guys that made it available to players without addressing the issues that would cause.

No, the blame falls on the guy who wrote it this badly. That is's a monster ability is no excuse, the rules should be just as properly written for those as for PCs.

It wouldn't be hard to write it properly. "When a creature with this special attack charges, instead of making a single attack, it can make all the attacks it can make in a full attack against the target of the charge (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability). <The creatures gets a +2 bonus on all attack rolls made as part of the charge.>/<The creatures gets a +2 bonus on the first attack roll made as part of the charge.>"

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Runic Charge + Pounce All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Rules Questions