Quiet being the opposite of concentration is a pretty weird story to sell, especially since it is only the 4th level version of the spell that dies this and mostly the lower level spell is an auditory invisibility.
If the spell still exists in the remastery, then maybe it might be changed entirely or it could just be about helping sneak and shutting down sonic effects. Although I think casting being obvious without feats is pretty important for the world narrative, so I wouldn’t be surprised for the need for talking to just be baked into the cast a spell activity. Having some spells not require talking and some requiring it feels more likely the thing to get removed from the game than not because it keeps casting spells much closer to D&D tradition. But if all spells just require verbal casting (a very common spell casting trope in fiction and a very old narrative) it creates further separation from D&D without really changing much.
It is only 155 spells out of 1,267 that don't have verbal components so I also wouldn't be surprised if silence just turns into no to spells with each classes's write up of how they cast spells (as I recall being a thing that's happening as mentioned at paizocon) talking about speech as part of it
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Having some spells not require talking and some requiring it feels more likely the thing to get removed from the game than not because it keeps casting spells much closer to D&D tradition. But if all spells just require verbal casting (a very common spell casting trope in fiction and a very old narrative) it creates further separation from D&D without really changing much.I don't see any problem in making general spellcasting rules like: 'While casting any spell with the 'Concentrate' tag, the caster must pronounce a magical spell in a loud voice. If the spell has only 'Manipulate' tag, caster doesn't need to say a spell.' So I wouldn't expect such change.
As for Silence - making it basically anti-magic (ok, anti-spell) zone is an extreme concept change. And for no reason, especially if they would use something like my casting rule above. So I'm not expecting that change either.
If they nest a psuedo verbal trait within the concentrate trait, we have basically just inverted the previous level of complexity. I thought part of the goal here was to simplify, so I hope they don't go that route. I'd rather they just make spells not require speaking and ditch Silent Spell.
It would be cool if every class has their own bespoke definition of what casting looks like, but then you have to consider it for balance and how casting works for every given creature in monster core.
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I say they simply make a single multipurpose Stealth Spellcaster Archetype with the Dedication that enables the ability to TRY to pass off Spellcasting under the radar for an extra Action and then give a number of Feats to supplement and improve upon it.
Casting Spells undetected or without being noticed is a BIG thing, especially outside of combat and it should cost something rather significant.
EZ peasy.
I agree that nesting verbal within concentrate would be a step in the wrong direction. "Casting spells requires vocalization or at least making sounds" is a pretty common in the mythology of magic. The first definition of the word spell in the Merriam Webster Dictionary tied to magic is "a spoken word or form of words held to have magic power." Having a small handful of spells that don't require it doesn't really add any character to the game that is not just D&D tradition.
Making the act of casting magic not require strong vocalization should be character building choice. I don't mind it being a metamagic thing that is primarily the domain of wizards with special exceptions that are more niche (like bards hiding magic in a performance, or druids being able to make magic in nature sounds). Giving it away would take a lot of charm out of such stories.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
IMO stealth casting should be done through skill feats.
*We have a lot of class feats that are just souped up skill feats which contribute to a bottleneck to establish your character's core identity. IMO if a class feat is dependent on a skill it should be a skill feat only available to that class.
*Deception has lackluster feats, and is also generally the least useful social skills. (At least in APs, which are designed to hand you the tools you need without using Deception and the risk of getting caught rarely outweighs the risks of being upfront.)
*I don't love conceal spell being solely the domain of wizards, particularly when they aren't as suited as charisma casters for subterfuge. This makes it available to all without requiring reprinting.
*Too many spells are basically traps without this feat, like Message and Ghost Sound.
*Casting from stealth is powerful, but as long as it requires a skill check it is also risky, particularly against level appropriate opponents.
I say they simply make a single multipurpose Stealth Spellcaster Archetype with the Dedication that enables the ability to TRY to pass off Spellcasting under the radar for an extra Action and then give a number of Feats to supplement and improve upon it.
Casting Spells undetected or without being noticed is a BIG thing, especially outside of combat and it should cost something rather significant.
EZ peasy.
I love this idea. It restricting other archetypes would also be suggestive of the intense level of training such speciality would require as well.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It would be cool if every class has their own bespoke definition of what casting looks like, but then you have to consider it for balance and how casting works for every given creature in monster core.
So after digging into the old stream summary by The Magic Sword, it actually sounds like this is happening:
There’s a rules bandaid to rip off here: spell components were an OGL holdover, so they're being reworked. Paizo realized they could pull them out to make them more individual to the characters and put the manipulate and concentrate traits on the spells themselves so you don’t have to do weird things like look in the trait to discover a secret trait. It's more of a presentation change, nothing really changes, they just present it differently.
This is pretty ambitious sounding, but cool to think about. If things like "do you need to speak when you cast" is determined by your class, it opens up space for classes or archetypes which don't need to. Monsters may also wind up able to use spells more flexibly, potentially allowing things like fey to cast illusions while hiding better.
I the end I didn't saw anything about "verbal component" of spellcasting in Gen Con.
I'm afraid that this could be gone away.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Conceal Spell is still a wizard feat but Silent Spell is not. That could mean verbal components are gone, or it could be the two feats were combined into one.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just to update.
In the Animist playtest was clear that Verbal and Somatic components doesn't really gone but the class that really defines how the Concentration and Manipulation effects of spells are represented by the class spellcasting.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Just to update.
In the Animist playtest was clear that Verbal and Somatic components doesn't really gone but the class that really defines how the Concentration and Manipulation effects of spells are represented by the class spellcasting.
To quote:
you are a spellcaster and can cast spells of the divine tradition using the Cast a Spell activity. As an animist, your incantations might be reciting relevant snippets of legends—stories passed down orally—or they might see you calling nearby spirits to honor ancient vows; your gestures could take the form of elegant dances or full-body convulsions as generations of memories and otherworldly energies surge through you.
We also have the new Conceal Spell, which seems much stronger:
You speak with the unheard voice of the spirits instead of your mortal words, allowing you to cast unnoticed. If the next action you use is to Cast a Spell, the spell gains the subtle trait, hiding
the shining runes, sparks of magic, and other manifestations that would usually give away your spellcasting. The trait hides only the spell’s spellcasting actions and manifestations, not its
effects, so an observer might still see a ray streak out from you or see you vanish into thin air.
So from this we can conclude that the Cast a Spell activity now generally involves words of power and gestures (which now might be nested under Concentrate and Manipulate traits instead of the other way around), but what those look like is laid out by your class. We can also infer that your words and gestures need not obviously be magical anymore and it will be much easier to stealth cast. The subtle trait will remove the magical light show, and conceal spell no longer requires a skill check. It just works.
I wonder how conceal spell works against reactive strike. If someone can't tell you're making actions to cast a spell, how do you react to it? Definitely feel like RAI it's more of a social situation use, but as a gm I don't know how I would describe the interaction between a caster trying to hide their casting and a martial trying to prevent the caster from casting.
|
|
I wonder how conceal spell works against reactive strike. If someone can't tell you're making actions to cast a spell, how do you react to it? Definitely feel like RAI it's more of a social situation use, but as a gm I don't know how I would describe the interaction between a caster trying to hide their casting and a martial trying to prevent the caster from casting.
It's not new actually.
There is at least one thread about Conceal spell vs AoO in the Rules forum that deals with this. IIRC Conceal spell triggers AoOs by itself.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I wonder how conceal spell works against reactive strike. If someone can't tell you're making actions to cast a spell, how do you react to it? Definitely feel like RAI it's more of a social situation use, but as a gm I don't know how I would describe the interaction between a caster trying to hide their casting and a martial trying to prevent the caster from casting.
I think it will be pretty simple actually. You're still making gestures, which counts as manipulate. Those gestures aren't recognizable as spell casting so much as gesticulating, pointing, dance moves, whatever... But you still leave an opening to strike.