IIRC, Shattered Star is an earlier 1e AP but I think Zen Archer has been around for awhile as well, not too familiar with the Warden archetype off the top of my head but I think that came later in one of the Ultimate books.
Important things to keep in mind are that all the 1e APs were designed for 4 PCs using a 15 point buy.
A 20 point buy seems to be the favorite after reading years of posts as well as online recruitment posts go. Additionally, if you have more than 4 players, you can see how difficulty drops without GM rebalancing. Some classes and combos are somewhat OP too, especially with extra attack features. Our Hungry Ghost Monk for example is very powerful atm, despite being played by someone completely new to the hobby. We had a Zen Archer briefly that did very well damage-wise but less so in tight quarter combat or with larger groups of enemies in melee range.
Personally, I stick with 15 point buys. My semi-regular game has 4 players and needs very light rebalancing. My annual long weekend gamer getaway has 6 players and needs a lot of rebalancing.
|
I find that if you use a 20 point buy or have more than 5 characters and your players are more experienced then it's easy to adjust difficulty without too much work. In any given encounter I either add +50% more of the weakest creature in a mixed group or I add the advanced simple template to a single monster encounter. I also give all named NPCs & monsters Max hp.
-Schoolhouse Vrock
Important things to keep in mind are that all the 1e APs were designed for 4 PCs using a 15 point buy.
Really? i must have missed that somewhere. is this listed somewhere?
in the playthrough I ran we had 20pts, and yes, there were times where the party felt it was a breeze, additional mooks in some encounters made it a little more fun and the advanced template/full HP on EVERYTHING made it a little more challenging. great AP, fun settings and quite a roller coaster for the party. :)
Important things to keep in mind are that all the 1e APs were designed for 4 PCs using a 15 point buy.
Really? i must have missed that somewhere. is this listed somewhere?
The "4 PCs" bit is listed in the AP's Advancement Track sidebar (usually p. 6).
The "15-point build" bit repeated every time a designer/developer is asked that question in these forums. Not to mention the fact that table 1-2 in the CRB lists 15 points as Standard Fantasy (p. 16) and it is actually stated that "the standard value for a character is 15 points" (CRB p. 15).
What muddies the waters is that PFS-legal characters for PFS scenarios are built with 20 points. But the APs and other adventures are definitely written for 15-point characters.
Aside from the party consisting of 4 PCs built with 15 points, there is one more assumption made by the AP developers, etc.: that the players do not possess vast amounts of system mastery. System masters with access to every PF splat book in existence can make incredibly successful/OP builds by taking advantage of all the rules options, etc., even those which were not balanced against each other.
(In order to reduce the reach of the system masters in my groups, I've limited the number of splat books used. This ensures that I'm not presented with a level 1 character from Avistan who has a regional trait from Garund, uses a weapon (and eventually a prestige class) from Tian Xia, and is of a species normally found only in Arcadia.)
Important things to keep in mind are that all the 1e APs were designed for 4 PCs using a 15 point buy.
Really? i must have missed that somewhere. is this listed somewhere?The "4 PCs" bit is listed in the AP's Advancement Track sidebar (usually p. 6).
The "15-point build" bit repeated every time a designer/developer is asked that question in these forums. Not to mention the fact that table 1-2 in the CRB lists 15 points as Standard Fantasy (p. 16) and it is actually stated that "the standard value for a character is 15 points" (CRB p. 15).
What muddies the waters is that PFS-legal characters for PFS scenarios are built with 20 points. But the APs and other adventures are definitely written for 15-point characters.
Aside from the party consisting of 4 PCs built with 15 points, there is one more assumption made by the AP developers, etc.: that the players do not possess vast amounts of system mastery. System masters with access to every PF splat book in existence can make incredibly successful/OP builds by taking advantage of all the rules options, etc., even those which were not balanced against each other.
(In order to reduce the reach of the system masters in my groups, I've limited the number of splat books used. This ensures that I'm not presented with a level 1 character from Avistan who has a regional trait from Garund, uses a weapon (and eventually a prestige class) from Tian Xia, and is of a species normally found only in Arcadia.)
Thank you.
i'm very relaxed with my rules for the game, always regretting this as i get up into 10+ territory and nothing poses a difficult encounter any more for the party, though I do say before the game starts that I will be running the AP as written and not making changes at all.
perhaps I need to get some better AP rules and see how that goes for when we start Return in December.
:D
Just an update, Vornn.
My regular group (that meets twice a month) is moving through Runelords atm with 4 characters with a 15 point buy. No one took an archetype and none of them are min-maxxers.
That said, the Half-orc Barbarian is a bit of a wrecking ball but also has spent a decent time in the negative hp range yet remaining functional thanks to the Diehard feat.
In some places I beefed up encounters, in other's I may have to help them. For example, they are about to hit Ripnugget's throne room next session and I'm a tad concerned about the CR. Between Ripnugget, commandos, and a warchanter things might go pear shaped, or they might be fine. For this reason, I had them meet Orik BEFORE the throne room (he came out to get some air and rethink his current situation). One of my players is a Wizard and he wanted to be from a Noble family, so I made him a bastard of House Vancaskerkin in Riddleport. Adding to his backstory, I set up that Orik was a childhood friend (the only one that accepted him as family) that hasn't been seen since the Riddleport scandal.
Last session Orik agreed to walk away, and has given up on Lyrie (which I made Orik's childhood crush that the wizard player always warned him about when they were younger). He won't help the party deal with her but I may have him sweep back in if the Ripnugget encounter goes sideways.
To summarize, my advice is... don't run an AP as written (unless you are looking to speedrun through your AP and start a new one).
If the Ripnugget encounter goes poorly, I left myself the Orik ace up my sleeve. If it goes too easy after Orik gets involved, I can have Bruthazmus come up from below to see what all the noise is about.
Plans on top of plans, but it makes it more memorable IMHO.
...
(In order to reduce the reach of the system masters in my groups, I've limited the number of splat books used. This ensures that I'm not presented with a level 1 character from Avistan who has a regional trait from Garund, uses a weapon (and eventually a prestige class) from Tian Xia, and is of a species normally found only in Arcadia.)
...
i'm very relaxed with my rules for the game, always regretting this as i get up into 10+ territory and nothing poses a difficult encounter any more for the party, though I do say before the game starts that I will be running the AP as written and not making changes at all.
perhaps I need to get some better AP rules and see how that goes for when we start Return in December.
:D
As an experiment - one which was met by howls of indignation by the min-maxing, cheesing optimiser in one group - I told both my main groups before they started their new APs that their L 1 PCs could not start with any ability scores higher than 16 (even post-racial adjustments) and that only one ability score could be below 10 (and that one no lower than 8). Also, any non-humans had to be either from the CRB or from another 10 RP-based species. (I'd forgotten that dwarves are technically built with 11 RPs, so of course the min-maxer made a dwarf PC. :p )
That might sound draconian (the non-Krynn definition), but I really wanted to see how it affected the game balance. A previous AP had had an elven wizard start with Intelligence 20 and he walked all over the opposition due to incredibly high spell DCs (compounded by Spell Focus, etc.). In both of the previous APs, each group of PCs had in general one totally bombed ability score - unfortunately the same one within the same group (i.e., low Charisma in one group and low Wisdom in the other one).
Also, with some specific exceptions, I limited the spells available to those from the CRB and APG plus two "skinny splatbooks" (Player's Companion series) per PC.
So far, the game balance seems to be working out well under these conditions. The higher-level group is currently level 10 and running the game does not feel like a constant "re-balancing act" so far.
...
(In order to reduce the reach of the system masters in my groups, I've limited the number of splat books used. This ensures that I'm not presented with a level 1 character from Avistan who has a regional trait from Garund, uses a weapon (and eventually a prestige class) from Tian Xia, and is of a species normally found only in Arcadia.)
...
i'm very relaxed with my rules for the game, always regretting this as i get up into 10+ territory and nothing poses a difficult encounter any more for the party, though I do say before the game starts that I will be running the AP as written and not making changes at all.
perhaps I need to get some better AP rules and see how that goes for when we start Return in December.
:D
As an experiment - one which was met by howls of indignation by the min-maxing, cheesing optimiser in one group - I told both my main groups before they started their new APs that their L 1 PCs could not start with any ability scores higher than 16 (even post-racial adjustments) and that only one ability score could be below 10 (and that one no lower than 8). Also, any non-humans had to be either from the CRB or from another 10 RP-based species. (I'd forgotten that dwarves are technically built with 11 RPs, so of course the min-maxer made a dwarf PC. :p )
That might sound draconian (the non-Krynn definition), but I really wanted to see how it affected the game balance. A previous AP had had an elven wizard start with Intelligence 20 and he walked all over the opposition due to incredibly high spell DCs (compounded by Spell Focus, etc.). In both of the previous APs, each group of PCs had in general one totally bombed ability score - unfortunately the same one within the same group (i.e., low Charisma in one group and low Wisdom in the other one).
Also, with some specific exceptions, I limited the spells available to those from the CRB and APG plus two "skinny splatbooks" (Player's Companion series) per PC.
So far,...
Thanks for the info. I think that i will be making a small change to the character creation guidance in my upcoming game, hopefully there will be enough time for everyone to readjust their characters.
:D