This is going to be a weird question but…


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

… I have a player asking me what’s the most racist region in Golarion. (I actually think he means more human-centric) but maybe having a low opinion or even a low tolerance for non-humans.

He’s going to be playing a human Champion/Redeemer and I’m wondering if he’s looking to set up something BIG for his character to overcome like an injustice to fight, or something along those lines.

(When I thought he was just asking for human-centric regions I suggested Absalom or Taldor) but then he throws racist into the equation so I thought probably Cheliax?

If it helps, I’ll be running The Fall of Plaguestone for him and the rest of the group.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Dean; The_Minstrel_Wyrm


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I would probably agree with Cheliax. They were the people that were meant to experience a golden age when the God of Humanity returned. They imprison and enslave (though now indentured servitude) halflings and have a whole fantasy slur for them. I'm not sure if you can get more fantasy racist then that...


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Cheliax is probably it, yeah. Human-supremacist, and their colonists down in Garund were pretty wretched to the Mwangi humans when they settled there.


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Racism among fantasy races can get weird, because these species are often used for allegories. The player should read the TV tropes entry, Fantastic Racism to view the scope and difficulty of defining most racist. To further complicate issues, Paizo has been advancing the Golarion setting to remove a lot of racism/speciesism.

I don't know every corner of Golarion, but I have been converting the Ironfang Invasion adventure path to Pathfinder 2nd Edition. The underlying conflict behind the open warfare is racism. The Goblinblood Wars (4697 AR — 4701 AR) in the Chitterwood in Isger were the high point of the conflict, where humans and goblinoids fought over territory. The goblinoids lost. A surviving hobgoblin child soldier Azaersi escaped northward to Molthune and became the leader of a large hobgoblin bandit gang, the Ironfang Bandits.

Surprisingly, Molthuni General Lord Vetrigan Sebine recruited the Ironfang Bandits into the Molthune army as a so-called monster division. Molthune has a military caste system and military service can earn citizenship. But the monstrous humaniods who finished their military service to Molthune ended up as third-class citizens, barely above slaves, due to racism.

General Azaersi's response was to unite all the monster divisions into the Ironfang Legion and try to carve a new nation for monstrous humanoids, such a goblins, hobgoblins, bugbears, centaurs, minotaurs, gnolls, and harpies, out of western Moltune and southern Nirmathas. She, too, was racist, with hatred toward humans. She wants to enslave the humans to serve her new nations. The Ironfang Invasion was a war of racism.

That was in 4717 AR. Official PF2 canon is that Azaersi now rules the nation she wanted, called Oprak, though it is smaller than she intended. Yet Oprak, Molthune, and Nirmathas have had to put their hate toward each other aside when two years later, the Whispering Tyrant escaped Gallowspire and created an army of undead north of them.

Molthune is a former colony of Cheliax and adjacent to Cheliax, so The_Minstrel_Wyrm can use Cheliax as the most racist place and mention the Goblinblood Wars and Ironfang Invasion for more flavor.

Undead, extraplanar fiends, and ferocious yet intelligent monsters such as ogres add another dimension to interspecies attitudes. Those being are dangerous and don't fit into civilized society. Dragons are yet another dimension, because they can form a civilization of their own but don't want to join humanoid civilization.

Liberty's Edge

The most arrogant about their past would be Taldor.

The most arrogant about their present would be Absalom.

But the most hateful human-centric regime would be Cheliax. They are the setting's Nazis that you can feel good beating to a pulp.

Alkenstar has an interesting extremely strong prejudice against mutants and anyone that looks like them but they are far from your place of adventure.


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I would also add Mzali. I can't say how they feel about non-humans, but they have different methods of interacting with other humans. If you are not from the people of Mwangi, then when you enter this city, you will simply be executed. I am sure that such a position of the state is very xenophobic.


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Tropkagar wrote:
I would also add Mzali. I can't say how they feel about non-humans, but they have different methods of interacting with other humans. If you are not from the people of Mwangi, then when you enter this city, you will simply be executed. I am sure that such a position of the state is very xenophobic.

Strength of Thousands does likely see those restrictions relaxed. We’ll see where the canon results of that land, but progress in that AP assumes Mzali opens up at least a little, and potentially almost completely.

I believe the ban on non-Mwangi applies to nonhumans; some book mentions a Halfling staying away.


keftiu wrote:
Tropkagar wrote:
I would also add Mzali. I can't say how they feel about non-humans, but they have different methods of interacting with other humans. If you are not from the people of Mwangi, then when you enter this city, you will simply be executed. I am sure that such a position of the state is very xenophobic.

Strength of Thousands does likely see those restrictions relaxed. We’ll see where the canon results of that land, but progress in that AP assumes Mzali opens up at least a little, and potentially almost completely.

I believe the ban on non-Mwangi applies to nonhumans; some book mentions a Halfling staying away.

Well, I would say that we have to wait another six years until the third edition to be confident about it.

I'm just not sure if this restriction applies to the non-human groups that Mwangi is home to. After all, we have enough varieties of elves from here.


Cheliax can be pretty bad toward Tieflings and Halflings, but Qadira gives it a run for its money when it comes to geniekin since a lot of them can expect social ostracisation at best and enslavement if they're very lucky, and all non-humans other than elves and a few Paraheen dwarves are denied hereditary citizenship which leaves them vulnerable to slavers. A very few Tieflings who are lucky enough to pass as emberkin Aasimar could trick their way into positions of prestige, but things aren't much better for them in Qadira than they are in Cheliax either. Qadira is considered a primitive and culturally backward region by the rest of the Padishah Empire for a reason. Things have apparently been getting better with the abolition of slavery, but for a long while it was so bad that geniekin fled Qadira for the deserts of Osirion, where they were treated much better and ended up leading to the spontaneous birth of pure genies when geniekin and elemental bloodlines mixed. And it's not getting better because there was a mass movement, it's improving solely because the Satrap's new wife is a reformer and her husband, who otherwise only cares about agitating for war with Taldor, doesn't actually care so I expect there's still a lot of cultural bigotry to deal with.


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Tropkagar wrote:
keftiu wrote:
Tropkagar wrote:
I would also add Mzali. I can't say how they feel about non-humans, but they have different methods of interacting with other humans. If you are not from the people of Mwangi, then when you enter this city, you will simply be executed. I am sure that such a position of the state is very xenophobic.

Strength of Thousands does likely see those restrictions relaxed. We’ll see where the canon results of that land, but progress in that AP assumes Mzali opens up at least a little, and potentially almost completely.

I believe the ban on non-Mwangi applies to nonhumans; some book mentions a Halfling staying away.

Well, I would say that we have to wait another six years until the third edition to be confident about it.

I'm just not sure if this restriction applies to the non-human groups that Mwangi is home to. After all, we have enough varieties of elves from here.

The population of Mzali is 99% human as of the Mwangi Expanse book, make of that what you will.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Tropkagar wrote:
keftiu wrote:
Tropkagar wrote:
I would also add Mzali. I can't say how they feel about non-humans, but they have different methods of interacting with other humans. If you are not from the people of Mwangi, then when you enter this city, you will simply be executed. I am sure that such a position of the state is very xenophobic.

Strength of Thousands does likely see those restrictions relaxed. We’ll see where the canon results of that land, but progress in that AP assumes Mzali opens up at least a little, and potentially almost completely.

I believe the ban on non-Mwangi applies to nonhumans; some book mentions a Halfling staying away.

Well, I would say that we have to wait another six years until the third edition to be confident about it.

I'm just not sure if this restriction applies to the non-human groups that Mwangi is home to. After all, we have enough varieties of elves from here.

Not necessarily. The Lost Omens line has been quietly working in canon events for second edition as the edition has gone on.


I'd also throw Geb onto the pile, though that's more of a case of a vitalist society rather than a racist one. I don't think the powers that be in Geb care much what your body plan conforms to as long as you haven't got a beating heart or heart-like equivalent.

Grand Lodge

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I go with Molthune for this.

When the setting was first published I interpreted a few sentences of Molthune introductory description as "Well, I guess this is the Paizo version of Nazi-Blitzkrieg region even though they can't make it too obvious." So that's how I've always DMed Molthune. While there's plenty of text that suggests to the contrary, my initial browsing/reading (15 years ago) made it stuck in my head. I knew Paizo could not have made it obvious; I just interpreted it as hinting in that direction, not taking it too far in published material. But I ran with it.

(If Cheliax is the evil place where hero PCs can fight against Devil-worshippers, if Ustalov is where hero PCs can fight against ghosts & vampires, if Nidal is where they can fight Hellraiser Cenobites and Taldor is where they can fight corrupt, rich, bureaucratic, white nepotists -- then Molthune can be the place where the hero PCs can fight racist nazis.)

.

Inner Sea Guide wrote:

The nine General Lords of Molthune champ at the bit to expand their nation. .... Molthuni diplomacy is always secondary to Molthuni conquest.

....
Ancient law and tradition, tempered by military pragmatism, define most aspects of life and conduct in Molthune. Some wonder that anything gets done under such a system, but once activated, the Molthune Imperial Army moves with stunning agility, speed, and force.

-- I even interpreted the Molthune flag as 'kind/sorta' a nazi flag.

.

In my own games, Molthune has done the Blitzkrieg Bop and completely conquered Nirmathis, Lastwall, and Druma. I went all-in on the nazi Blitzkrieg interpretation. PCs go on missions to liberate concentration camps filled with ethnic Nirmathi, Druman and even Elven & Orc victims in such. In the heart of Molthune, underground Nirmathi freedom-fighter Rangers are often hiring PCs (or *are* the PCs). To the north, Molthune tries to commit genocide on Orcs but can't really get into Ustalov. To the west and east there's the mountains and water. And to the south are Dwarves, Elves and a valley to Cheliax -- all on the agenda to initiate another Blitzkrieg Bop campaign -- but obviously can't.

Liberty's Edge

Molthune could have been Prussia before it became Germany then. Somewhat makes sense actually.


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Hermea is pretty dang racist.


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Alternatively, Taldor!

Here is a quote on the issue on the War for the Crown player's guide.

WftC player's guide:
Despite this cosmopolitan veneer, Taldor remains a stubbornly old-fashioned, humanocentric empire with little regard for non-humans. Stigma toward part- humans such as half-orcs, half-elves, and geniekin is especially virulent, with some humans openly labeling such folk “mongrels” or worse. Half-elves descended from noble Taldans generally have the resources to live in comfort, but at the cost of lifelong reclusion. Halflings, gnomes, and half-orcs are considered suitable only for roles as servants.

The twist here is that, post-WftC, the current leadership is moderately progressive, but I imagine that the text above should hold true for general culture still.

Liberty's Edge

Milo v3 wrote:
Hermea is pretty dang racist.

Yes. It is. But given the potential fate of the chosen ones, it might be best not to be one.


W E Ray wrote:
When the setting was first published I interpreted a few sentences of Molthune introductory description as "Well, I guess this is the Paizo version of Nazi-Blitzkrieg region even though they can't make it too obvious." So that's how I've always DMed Molthune. While there's plenty of text that suggests to the contrary, my initial browsing/reading (15 years ago) made it stuck in my head. I knew Paizo could not have made it obvious; I just interpreted it as hinting in that direction, not taking it too far in published material. But I ran with it.

I'll be honest, when I read the description when I first read the Golarion lore that is where my mind went as well. I am honestly kind of sad that isn't canon, as they seem to be trying to do the "law vs chaos" of Molthune vs Nirmathi, but I feel like it is not done well. I will probably do the same as you, because it makes more sense.

Grand Lodge

And it makes sense that Paizo can't make it obvious.

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