Welcome ladies, gentlemen, and all other awesome frendos to what is considered by most beings in the multiverse to be *impossible*.
<thunderous applause>
Your mission, should you choose to accept, is to somehow make your through the second layer of Hell(the City of Dis), into the Iron Tower, and slay the Lord of the Second, Disapter.
A few rules(of which there will likely be more as people ask questions or throw out ideas):
1) You must kill Dispater himself, in Dis, for this to count. You can not summon him elsewhere(even if you otherwise possess such a capability) and you can not kill a clone, duplicate, simulacrum, etc. It has to be the one true Iron Lord.
2) Abilities like Call/Control Creature or similar powers can't used to affect Dispater, because they are limited to one deity per creature type, and Asmodeus already has them.
3) No theoretical builds(like Pun-Pun), no infinite loops, etc. The goal is to attempt the Iron Siege within the 'normal' confines of the rules.
Now then, without further ado(to which I bid you!, *bang!*) here are the epic character creation rules ya'll have been waiting for:
Level: Pure mortals have 40 levels, deities have 70, all others(non divine outsiders, dragons, fae, etc) have 100.
Ability Scores: 220 point buy + your divine rank. All scores start at zero and are bought on a 1-for-1 basis. Minimum 12, maximum 70. p{B]Races:[/b] All, including monsters, who’s HD subtract from your above level total. For races without HD, you may boost the race up to 41 RP. You may also create your own race up to 41 RP. You can go slightly above this, if there’s a trait that fits perfectly but would otherwise push you over, but try to stay within 41.
Classes: Again, all, including 3pp. You must link your class, or failing that, provide me with the info either on your stat block, or in a PM/otherwise shared with me.
Hit Points: Max, you may use either your Con or Cha(even if not undead) to determine bonus HP per level. minimum 4/level even if you would otherwise have less.
Traits: 10, from any category, even the same one. They don’t really add **that** much at this level.
Alignment: Any, just give me a reason you’re going after Dispater
Starting Wealth: 2,275,000,000. Yes, you read that right. 2.275 *billion* gold. Weapons and armor/shields are capped at +20. Split that how you wish. We’ll be making use of epic spellcrafting, so a lot of your gold should go to that or item creation. On the off chance this somehow isn’t enough, I actually calculated the WBL beyond 50(which is what that 2.275 *billion* is for).
House Rules: Background skills, Combat Stamina(All good BAB get it for free. All others may take the feat.), Skill Unlocks(All classes who have 8+ skills/level get this feat for free, and they all may take it more than once. Other classes may take it once), Elephant in the Room, Epic Boons with the following changes: 1) Cosmic Favor stacks up to +8. It costs 2 boons to get a +6, and four to get +8, 2) Template may only be taken once and it costs 1 boon per increase to CR, 3) Unorthodox Technique can also add the ability score to attack(melee or ranged), damage(melee or ranged), the DC for one school/sphere/discipline/etc(only once per category, ie the Illusion school and the Illusion sphere, taking separately), or one non divine special ability(a class feature, a racial ability, etc). It costs 5 boons per Technique chosen, and each may only be taken once(Ie, no adding Str and Con to your Ref saves, lol). 4) Finally Wealth can’t be taken. Ya’ll are already gettin crazy amounts of gold.
Background/History/Personality: You can come up with as much of a backstory/history as you want. I can’t promise it will matter, but it *might*. Perhaps it will be used against you. Maybe there will be something of benefit in Dis based on your backstory. No guarantees. The most important aspect is *why* have you chosen to attempt the impossible to try and defeat the Lord of Iron.
Other Free Player Gifts: Feat every level. All classes get +2 skills/level, even rogues. You may select templates up to +5 CR for free. *One* class may take an archetype for free, without giving up or trading out class features.
Epic levels We’ll be using the Epic Rules found here. For all 3pp classes that lack epic progression, I will work with you to come up with some reasonable advancements. Casters might also wanna check out the old Epic Spell rules . Again, for those who do not have epic spellcasting, but have similar abilities(ie, spherecasting, maneuvers, etc) we’ll try to come up with something for ya. Please do not be discouraged from taking those classes, as I am confident we can come up with some good epic abilities for them.
Mythic: PCs start as tier 6 Mythic and **may** ascend to higher tiers through game play. All of the Mythic Rules from Legendary Games are allowed as well. Along with the Mythic Options for Spheres.
Each PC *must* create a mythic tradition, even if they are not using the sphere system(use the link above). Most of the benefits aren’t tied to that system, so you’ll gain benefits no matter what.
In addition to any qualities you choose, you also get the Supervisor, which is your PC’s signature item(Think Mjölnir, Gungnir, the Caduceus, etc) except you create it as if it with the WBL of 30th level PC(12,500,000gp). You may further enchant your Supervisor like a normal item of its type, however due to its unique, sentient nature, you need to pay double any GP costs. This is in addition to the multiplier of it not taking up a space, if it's not actually an item. You may also apply the Legendary Item universal mythic path abilities to your Supervisor, but they must be taken normally.
Your mythic power has a will and directive of its own. Treat this effect as if you were always carrying around an intelligent magic item with you, except the magic item is usually a part of you (though it may still be an actual item). The supervisor is created by the GM with a gp budget of a heroic NPC of your character level + mythic tier + 3. If this goes above 20, multiply their gp budget by x1.3 for each rank above 20, to a maximum effective rank of 30. The supervisor has a goal that must be met and will use their own abilities to try and force you to help achieve the goal it was created for. The supervisor gains a +5 bonus to its DC to possess you and this dominance bypasses any immunity to mind-affecting effects you may have. The supervisor may assist you in achieving its goal using its own set of powers, but this goal must never be so directly in line with your own motives as to not be a burden in some manner, and the supervisor may disable all of your mythic abilities if sufficiently upset (or re-enable them, if placated). Supervisors cannot be targeted by Mana sphere effects, including powers similar to those of the Mana sphere, and supervisors that are not items cannot be targeted at all.
Divine Ranks(should you choose to make a deity): You have a pool of 18 divine ranks from which to draw and you can split them as you wish. You're allowed to have a single DvR 18 deity, two DvR 9 deities, etc.
The Dicefreaks divine rules can be found in Chapter 9 of The Gates of Hell. I would use the Drop Box links, as I’m unsure about the Scribd ones.
As I asked in the interest check, how would people feel about using discord? All of the actual game play and die rolling would be done where, but we can use discord to better facilitate communication, I can pin rules/rulings, people can share art, etc.
It is entirely possible I forgot some basic elements to character creation. If I did, just ask, and I'll ignore you. I mean, I'll give ya an answer ASAP! lol
I just might have the time to devote to this now that the accursed monthly shift change is over. I would like to ask a few questions before I commit to such a mountainous undertaking as character creation for this game is sure to be, however.
- How long is recruitment going to be open? I expect the average player will need weeks to create something that can stand a decent enough chance.
- Is this a group or solo game? The original game was a solo challenge if I recall correctly.
- Are you using the Deities and Demigods divine ranks or those from the Immortal's Handbook?
I just might have the time to devote to this now that the accursed monthly shift change is over. I would like to ask a few questions before I commit to such a mountainous undertaking as character creation for this game is sure to be, however.
- How long is recruitment going to be open? I expect the average player will need weeks to create something that can stand a decent enough chance.
- Is this a group or solo game? The original game was a solo challenge if I recall correctly.
- Are you using the Deities and Demigods divine ranks or those from the Immortal's Handbook?
1) Recruitment is technically always open, as more than one person may make an attempt. Would be pretty messed up if a bunch of people spent weeks bustin butt workin on such a high level PC, for me to only pick one person.
Rather, whoever finishes first will get first crack. However see below.
2) The original game was indeed a solo challenge, and I intend for this to be as well.
That said, if a group of players wanted to create a fully shared backstory as to why they are out to kill Dispater together, and I like the concept well enough, I'll allow a group attempt.
**Warning** should a group decide to make the attempt together, I will likely increase the difficulty(somehow) of the challenge to make up for the big shift in balance/power(mostly in the form of increased action economy).
3) I'm using the Dicefreaks deity creation rules, found in chapter 9 of the Gates of Hell. Use the above link to download the PDF for free(and the other 8 chapters as well!).
I actually did a fairly solid compare and contrast, and the DF rules *seem* to be more powerful on the whole than the IH ones.
I don’t think I’m up to soloing this, but I’m down to put together a strike force if anyone else wants to participate.
Yeah, I'm not too keen on the solo thing. I'd join a combined effort, though.
A little puzzled with 40 levels as mortal. If I wanted to make Popeye the Brawler, just how would I progress past 20?
You've got questions? I've got answers!
1) Yes. If you wanted make a non divine, non monstrous mortal(say just a really badass elf warmage) you would have 40 levels. Should you decide to make him an elven god of war and magic, you would have 70 levels, and 18 divine ranks(which you could split among other deities, as mentioned above).
2) Monsters use class levels, but their racial HD eats up some of their 100HD. A great wyrm gold dragon has 30 HD(I believe) which leaves them with 70 class levels. I suppose you could advance via monster HD as well, if you wanted to. I just don't personally know the details of monster advancement via HD.
3) I am honestly unsure why there's mortals, deities, and monsters, as that's been a part of the rules since the very beginning(likely some 15+ years now, lol). It's entirely possible they're allowed to give players variety in their choices.
As this was originally a solo challenge, 'wildly varied power levels' doesn't really exist. If a level 40 mortal can somehow actually defeat Dispater(despite him having way more HD, and divine/cosmic ranks), that's all that matters.
4) Yes, you have a feat *every* level, including all of them past 20. Only the feats you gain for your epic levels(21+) can be used for the epic boons.
5) As said a few times, this was initially a solo challenge when it was first designed forever ago on the old Dicefreaks forum.
I had intended this to also be a series of solo challenges, but I did say a group attempt was possible.
6) Brawler is one of the classes that doesn't have an epic progression in the above linked document. However, it does have plenty of class features that can easily continue past level 20.
I can also come up with several unique, post 20 class features to keep things spicy.
If we do take a monster, do we calculate the ability scores the same way, or do we start from the normal ability scores and have fewer points to add?
If we do take a monster, do we calculate the ability scores the same way, or do we start from the normal ability scores and have fewer points to add?
I believe there's some sort of formula to figuring out the bonuses a monster gets to their ability scores. Buy your stats normally, and then add the bonuses to whatever your final numbers are.
If, for some reason any characters ability scores seem too low(unlikely they'll be too high), we can adjust them.
If we do take a monster, do we calculate the ability scores the same way, or do we start from the normal ability scores and have fewer points to add?I believe there's some sort of formula to figuring out the bonuses a monster gets to their ability scores. Buy your stats normally, and then add the bonuses to whatever your final numbers are.
If, for some reason any characters ability scores seem too low(unlikely they'll be too high), we can adjust them.
Is the 70 max at point buy or a maximum overall after level adds, mythic, items, etc.?
I had a buddy come up with some stat arrays, to sort of see what an optimized build would like:
STR 70
DEX 12
CON 70
INT 20
WIS 36
CHA 12
STR 50
DEX 12
CON 50
INT 20
WIS 18
CHA 70
STR 16
DEX 70
CON 50
INT 24
WIS 28
CHA 32
STR 12
DEX 60
CON 50
INT 70
WIS 16
CHA 12
STR 26
DEX 14
CON 70
INT 20
WIS 70
CHA 20
STR 36
DEX 36
CON 62
INT 30
WIS 34
CHA 22
STR 12
DEX 30
CON 40
INT 60
WIS 18
CHA 60
Let's say for right now, the 70 is the absolute max for ability scores, and then we'll look them over to see if they need to be adjusted.
If you look under my above spoiler, you'll see a variety of potential arrays bought with the 220, and with the cap of 70.
You dumped all you bonuses into Cha, which obviously you couldn't do if the maximum was in place.
The problem is that these characters end up becoming an arms race, yeah? You as a level 40 mortal have a Cha of 130.
If you were a level 70 deity, that would probably be much higher.
And then what of Disapter? Do I further increase his stats to match or surpass you? If I do, that would make this even harder, but if I don't that kinda seems silly, no? A divine rank 18 being should absolutely have better stats than a non divine mortal.
See the dilemma?
I will happily take suggestions on coming up with some sort of decent middle ground, but I do not think allowing completely uncapped ability scores without any sort of maximum is a good idea.
I believe part(all) of the reason for the max stats originally was due to how the various entities fit within the cosmology that was being built at the old Dicefreaks forum. They wanted some sort of hierarchy where a demigod of strength might have a 40 in that stat, while a greater god would have a 60(or maybe even 70). I have no idea why they chose those 70 as their cap(and actually, that was physical scores only. Mental scores were capped at 60. And they suggested physical scores should be around 55, while mentals should be 40 or so), but their Dispater was built using such limitations.
Thus, if we change them(either entirely or with a larger maximum), Dispater needs to be rebuilt as well.
One possible idea I has was that any rebuilding of Dispater that I do will be completely unknown to the players. You will only have the stats from the interest check/above link to chapter 9, and that's it. If I decide to triple all his stats, add a ton of new abilities, and otherwise make him(and all of his allies/minions) much stronger, you'll never know, and will just have to hope what you build is still good enough.
I very much dislike this idea, as it's too easy to accuse me of cheating and specifically countering the builds ya'll create. Which isn't the point of this. The idea is you all know what you're up against, stat/ability wise, and are making what you hope will be a challenger capable of defeating Dispater.
You have +10 from your levels, +6 from race, +6 total from mythic, etc.
And it's really not 'hard to deal with the 70 cap'. Here are 7 different arrays that 'deal' with it fine:
STR 70
DEX 12
CON 70
INT 20
WIS 36
CHA 12
STR 50
DEX 12
CON 50
INT 20
WIS 18
CHA 70
STR 16
DEX 70
CON 50
INT 24
WIS 28
CHA 32
STR 12
DEX 60
CON 50
INT 70
WIS 16
CHA 12
STR 26
DEX 14
CON 70
INT 20
WIS 70
CHA 20
STR 36
DEX 36
CON 62
INT 30
WIS 34
CHA 22
STR 12
DEX 30
CON 40
INT 60
WIS 18
CHA 60
********************************
Now, obviously, the intent is to make a least a decently rounded character ability score wise. You boosted the heck outta your Cha, but look at Dispater's stats(*currently*):
Abilities: Str 35, Dex 32, Con 39, Int 48, Wis 48, Cha 48
Fairly well rounded.
As I said above, I will happily hear suggestions. Reducing the points is an option, as is increasing the cap.
I would be curious to hear from others, or yourself, on what else we could do to keep things fair, but also manageable.
I wonder how would I roleplay someone with 150 Int (or any mental stat).
I guess combat would probably start and I would go "feck, I forgot to use that buff".
I will happily take suggestions on coming up with some sort of decent middle ground, but I do not think allowing completely uncapped ability scores without any sort of maximum is a good idea.
I believe part(all) of the reason for the max stats originally was due to how the various entities fit within the cosmology that was being built at the old Dicefreaks forum. They wanted some sort of hierarchy where a demigod of strength might have a 40 in that stat, while a greater god would have a 60(or maybe even 70). I have no idea why they chose those 70 as their cap(and actually, that was physical scores only. Mental scores were capped at 60. And they suggested physical scores should be around 55, while mentals should be 40 or so), but their Dispater was built using such limitations.
I think that we should have one HD limit and one stat cap for all types. Or you have three different versions of dispater. 30HD difference is huge. And 60 HD difference means that anything that is more than a speed bump to monsters is going to see mortals as a speed bump.
Thus, if we change them(either entirely or with a larger maximum), Dispater needs to be rebuilt as well.
One possible idea I has was that any rebuilding of Dispater that I do will be completely unknown to the players. You will only have the stats from the interest check/above link to chapter 9, and that's it. If I decide to triple all his stats, add a ton of new abilities, and otherwise make him(and all of his allies/minions) much stronger, you'll never know, and will just have to hope what you build is still good enough.
I very much dislike this idea, as it's too easy to accuse me of cheating and specifically countering the builds ya'll create. Which isn't the point of this. The idea is you all know what you're up against, stat/ability wise, and are making what you hope will be a challenger capable of defeating Dispater.
Well, anybody going in is going to have studied Dispater. In some cases they might have encouraged others to face him and watched the results.
I would list a partial statblock. Not everything, but a good framework.
And if we standardize, I'll have to chop away, since I've started two monster characters.
Can I just point out that there are canon Pathfinder stats for Dispater? Granted, he’s much less powerful than whoever designed the Siege was thinking, so the ability score and HD caps and such would have to be drastically overhauled to fight the canon one. But it’s also a much more manageable build. I’m just completely blowing my mind trying to make something with as many as 100 HD. Especially since I usually build in HeroLab, which doesn’t support any of the Epic stuff that’s allowed for this.
Thinking it over, I'm going to have to almost completely redesign Dispater to bring him up to PF standards. Yes, I know there is already a PF version, but I would much prefer to use the Dicefreaks core build. That's the original point of this challenge after all.
Since I'm gong to do be doing that, I am okay with increasing the ability score maximum.
What do people feel would be a fair cap? I definitely want to keep some sort even if it's rather high.
Also, do we want to standardize all HD? Should we make it that all applicants must make 70 HD deities? Or keep the variance for each of the three tiers? I could maybe run mortals vs the official PF version, with tweaks from DF, and then the deities and 100HD monsters vs my revised Dispater?
I was building a monster at 70 hd and I hit the stat caps on everything important and began raising dump stats. Without stat boosting items.
Is anybody doing a deity? I've got more than enough ideas without learning a new system that is even less supported by hero lab. Without them, just making 70hd mortals and monsters would be fine. If we do offer dieties, we just need to figure out what cost the deity template is.
I was building a monster at 70 hd and I hit the stat caps on everything important and began raising dump stats. Without stat boosting items.
Is anybody doing a deity? I've got more than enough ideas without learning a new system that is even less supported by hero lab. Without them, just making 70hd mortals and monsters would be fine. If we do offer dieties, we just need to figure out what cost the deity template is.
It's not really a template. It kinda is, but it's more akin to mythic in that it's a subsystem layered on top of the existing rules.
Deities are staying. I think you vastly underestimate them, but to your own peril. Dispater is a cosmic entity, and I'm not changing that. I'm already altering some stuff, too much more, and this is no longer the original challenge, which is what I wanted to run. Not some water down, pathetic, weaksauce version.
What's interesting is that I don't ever recall(or read up on) people having issues with the ability score maximums in the past. They just accepted it as part of the character creation...
I am happy to accept it but it isnt really a limit as most people are going to end up with near enough 70's across the board given how many points we have to play with.
220 divided by 6 is a 36 in each score. You must have at least a 12 in them all, meaning you have 148 left.
Giving yourself a 70 from the get go in Cha, and 12s in everything else costs 130, leaving you with 90 points.
90/5 = 18, which means you could have a 70 Cha, and then a 30 in the other 5 scores.
If everybody is level/HD 70, you get 17 ability score increases. If you're trying to get 70s in all stats, that gives +3 to each(aside from your maxed out Cha), bringing them up to 33.
You have three +2 increases from Mythic, which gets you to 35 in three more stats. At that point you would have a 70 Cha, three stats at 33, and three others at 35.
To get 70s in every ability score, you still need +35 to three of your scores, and +37 to other 3.
If bonuses from magic items are capped at +12, and then you buy +5 tomes to all stats, you now need three +18s and three +20s to reach 70s across the board.
That's a fair amount, though not impossible to gain, especially with templates.
Maybe the free +5 for templates needs to be reduced or gotten rid of. I feel like they might be a lot stronger in PF than 3e.
I'm okay with the stat caps.
Alrighty, what do people think about the following adjustments:
Level/HD: Now 70 across the board. Mortals, deities, and monsters. Mortals will face a tweaked, boosted Dispater from the interest check. Deities and monsters will face a completely rebuild Dispater, which will take me some time to design.
Ability scores: Maximum cap of 85.
Templates: You get one template, up to +2, for free. No other templates.
Well the template issue kills all the work I've done. Would you consider three levels of template?
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Well the template issue kills all the work I've done. Would you consider three levels of template?
Probably how you were getting 70s in all so easily.
Monkey,
Are 3rd party templates in the mix, or only from Paizo sources?
Edit: are we able to use the epic boons to gain an additional template beyond the free one at +2 using your original posting of 1 boon per +1 of the template?
Looks like you approved 3rd party stuff and you already said no other templates.
Why am I not surprised to find you're doing this, Monkeygod? XD
Well the template issue kills all the work I've done. Would you consider three levels of template?Probably how you were getting 70s in all so easily.
Monkey,
Are 3rd party templates in the mix, or only from Paizo sources?Edit: are we able to use the epic boons to gain additional templates beyond the free +2?
Actually the templates are minor issues. I would be willing to reduce my racial HD and forgo the stat boosts to have three levels of templates.
Honestly, I had forgotten that the epic boons could be used to gain a template.
Since they do, would people be okay with them being the only way to gain a template, as follows:
Templates: You main use your epic boons to gain one template, up to +5, with it costing one boon per +CR increase.
Is that fair to everyone?
Eh, that still means a complete rebuild for me. Especially as one of the two templates I need is required to simply be a PC.
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Honestly, I had forgotten that the epic boons could be used to gain a template.
Since they do, would people be okay with them being the only way to gain a template, as follows:
Templates: You main use your epic boons to gain one template, up to +5, with it costing one boon per +CR increase.
Is that fair to everyone?
Works for me.
Eh, that still means a complete rebuild for me. Especially as one of the two templates I need is required to simply be a PC.
I'm confused as to how? You said above that you needed three levels of templates. I'm allowing you up to five.
Do you mean something else when you say 'levels' ? Cuz I figured 'levels' meant +CR, but apparently not?
Perhaps you could fill me in on what exactly you're planning/needing with these templates?? Or is there a reason for all the secrecy?
What template is 'required to simply be a PC' ?
Okay, I've got a construct with 30 HD, two classes up to 20, and three levels of template. To get epic boons, I'd have to shank one of those classes in order to have epic levels in one class.
I need one of those templates in order to have an intelligence score. Without that, I'm not really an independent being. The other one would be painful to lose.
This change to templates means I've wasted quite a lot of hours on a concept that either needs to be rebuilt from the ground up or scrapped.
Unless I am woefully confused, you should be fine:
You may trade the epic feats you gain after level/HD 20 for an epic boon. They are character dependant(like the ones all PCs gain every other level in a normal game) *not* class dependant. Ie, you have 50 feats to spend on epic boons.
Even if they were class dependant, you would still get 10 epic feats from being a 30HD construct. However, they are not.
Again, unless I am massively confused....
Relevant text:
In a game beyond level 20, GMs **may** rule that epic boons can be taken in place of the feats that characters would gain at 21st level and every odd level thereafter. Epic boons gained in this way should not increase a creature’s CR on their own.
I have made this ruling, except you get a feat every level, including the ones post 20.
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Unless I am woefully confused, you should be fine:
You may trade the epic feats you gain after level/HD 20 for an epic boon. They are character dependant(like the ones all PCs gain every other level in a normal game) *not* class dependant. Ie, you have 50 feats to spend on epic boons.
Even if they were class dependant, you would still get 10 epic feats from being a 30HD construct. However, they are not.
Again, unless I am massively confused....
Relevant text:
In a game beyond level 20, GMs **may** rule that epic boons can be taken in place of the feats that characters would gain at 21st level and every odd level thereafter. Epic boons gained in this way should not increase a creature’s CR on their own.
I have made this ruling, except you get a feat every level, including the ones post 20.
Ah, this wasn't clear that they could use any feat after 20th. I now have no problems.
Monkeygod, are we extrapolating the Divine Spellcasting beyond the current cap of 69 in a Stat, up to 85, or leaving cap as is? Either way is fine, just need to know for this goddess I'm building.
Unsure what you mean. Please to explain further?
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Unsure what you mean. Please to explain further?Monkeygod, are we extrapolating the Divine Spellcasting beyond the current cap of 69 in a Stat, up to 85, or leaving cap as is? Either way is fine, just need to know for this goddess I'm building.
On page 121 of TGoH9, they enumerate the extra spell slots above 9th level you get for having an Ability score above 29 with the Divine Spellcasting Salient Divine Ability. The chart tops off at 24th level spells and an ability score of 59, even though the chart lists 25th level spells and they allow you to go to 60 in a mental stat there.
I think they copy-pasted this chart modified it slightly, and capped it.