The following is a synopsis of all information concerning the focus components of spell and Primal/Divine Foci specifically written in RAW.
A focus component is defined as:
A focus is an object that funnels the magical energy of the spell. The spell gains the manipulate trait and requires you to either have a free hand to retrieve the focus listed in the spell or already be holding the focus in your hand. As part of Casting the Spell, you retrieve the focus (if necessary), manipulate it, and can stow it again if you so choose. Foci tend to be expensive, and you need to acquire them in advance to Cast the Spell.
A total of 4 spells that I can find have required focus components: Alarm (requires a 3 gp bell as a focus), Seashell of Stolen Sound (likely intended for seashell to be used as a focus), Plane shift (likely intended to require magical tuning fork as a focus), and Song of the Fallen (focus not specified in spell description).
A Primal focus is define as:
Because you're a druid, you can usually hold a primal focus (such as holly and mistletoe) for spells requiring material components instead of needing to use a material component pouch.
A Divine focus is defined as:
Because you're a cleric, you can usually hold a divine focus (such as a religious symbol) for spells requiring material components instead of needing to use a material component pouch.
Druids can take the level 1 Druid feat Verdant Weapon to:
You cultivate a seed that can sprout into a wooden staff, vine whip, or another weapon. You spend 10 minutes focusing primal energy into a seed, imprinting it with the potential of a single level 0 weapon you are trained with and that has no mechanical parts or metal components. When holding the imprinted seed, you can spend a single Interact action to cause it to immediately grow into that weapon; a second Interact action returns it to seed form. Your verdant weapon functions as the imprinted weapon and can be etched with runes or affixed with talismans as normal, which are suppressed when the weapon is in seed form. It also becomes a primal focus. You can have only one verdant seed at a time. If you prepare a second, your first verdant seed immediately becomes a mundane specimen; any runes on the previous seed that are valid for the new seed transfer between them at no cost, but you lose any inapplicable runes unless you transfer them to a runestone or another weapon.
Clerics can take the level 2 Cleric feat Emblazon Armament (CR 122) to:
Carefully etching a sacred image into a physical object, you steel yourself for battle. You can spend 10 minutes emblazoning a symbol of your deity upon a weapon or shield. The symbol doesn’t fade until 1 year has passed, but if you Emblazon an Armament, any symbol you previously emblazoned and any symbol already emblazoned on that item instantly disappears. The item becomes a religious symbol of your deity and can be used as a divine focus while emblazoned, and it gains another benefit determined by the type of item. This benefit applies only to followers of the deity the symbol represents. For shields, the shield gains a +1 status bonus to its Hardness. (This causes it to reduce more damage with the Shield Block reaction.) For weapons, the weapon the wielder gains a +1 status bonus to damage rolls.
Primeval Mistletoe is the only written item that specifies that it can be used as a primal focus.
Hundred-moth Caress is the only written item that specifies that it can be used as a divine focus.
With all of that out of the way Can a Primal or Divine focus take the form of a permanent held item such as a weapon, shield, wand, or stave?
To me, I see nothing in RAW that limits what form a focus can take. The presence of the Hundred-moth Caress and Primeval Mistletoe sets the precedent that foci can take the form of magical items and weapons. The class feats mentioned above allow for the rapid creation of buff weapons and shields with out the need for crafting checks. The weapons created with these feats can be used as foci, but the feats themselves do not suggests that weapon foci could not be found through adventuring or crafting (much like how an alchemist's ability to quickly create alchemical items does not limit non-alchemists from crafting or finding such items).
With all this laid out, does granting a Druid a primal focus in the form of a thematically appropriate staff weapon or wand break the game? Is it too strong? Does it take away from Druids that take Verdant Weapon? There really needs to be GM advice on this topic.
My feeling, base on RAW and my interpretation of rules as intended, is that any object can be a Primal or Divine focus as long as it fits the general description laid out in the class and must be held to use (i.e., worn objects as foci are not supported RAW). I think that to make a focus version of a basic item (ex. lvl 0, staff, common), a gm should likely reflavor it accordingly to fit the class description and then raise its level by 1 and/or increase its rarity (ex. lvl 1, primal staff of live oak, uncommon). An item such as this should probably only be given to a character through a formula or through adventuring.
What are the community's thoughts on this? And please don't say that we are limited to only the item's given in RAW. The GM guide very clearly supports the creation of items. The key questions are Do permanent held items that serve as foci break the game? Are permanent items that serve as foci directly or indirectly prohibited/discouraged by RAW? What guidelines should a GM use to create such items since so few have been published?
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I would use the same answer that I use for Thaumaturge implements. You can't arbitrarily merge two items to serve double duty. The number of hands that an item takes to use is a balance consideration.
So yes, you can have whatever item you want for a focus component item. But it won't have any other mechanical impact other than being a focus component item. So you couldn't have your weapon serve double duty as being a holy symbol, and you can't have a wand of barkskin that happens to be made out of a holly branch and decorated with mistletoe be considered a druid focus item.
There are feats that let you get around that restriction, such as Emblazon Armament that you mentioned. There are possibly specific items that are written to serve double duty. But unless you, your GM, and everyone else at the table are invoking the First Rule, then you can't just completely devalue those feats and items by allowing it generally for free.
Now, if you are invoking the First Rule and want to create similar items to Primeval Mistletoe, that is certainly fine.
I am not sure how to balance that. I would probably let the focus item combine with items that are about 4 levels lower than the resulting combination item is.
Now, if you are invoking the First Rule and want to create similar items to Primeval Mistletoe, that is certainly fine.
I am not sure how to balance that. I would probably let the focus item combine with items that are about 4 levels lower than the resulting combination item is.
There are items that act as holy symbols/have holy symbol on them like Ancestral Embrace, Judgement Thurible, Bracers of Devotion, Glaive of the Artist, Guiding Chisel and Holy Prayer Beads.
Soul Warden Dedication allows emblazoning of Pharasma's holy sigil on an item.
I'm not sure that holy symbols are factored into levels/cost at all: it seems more like a ribbon ability IMO. Myself, I'd use he Adjustments rules and just price it as a separate item cost.
I would use the same answer that I use for Thaumaturge implements.
I don't know about the Thaumaturge debate. Could you post a link so I can look at the overlap?
You can't arbitrarily merge two items to serve double duty. The number of hands that an item takes to use is a balance consideration.
I generally agree with this, but I would point out that items are merged all the time in PF2e (ex. all staves can serve as melee staff weapons). Balance is a huge concern for me. My issue is that Primal and Divine Foci are not very well defined mechanically. Foci are not their own specific category of item. All we know is that they must be held and are not consumed on use, making them permanent held items of which there are many subcategories including weapons, shields, wands, and staves.
As I have pointed out, there is published precedent for dual purpose foci in the Primeval Mistletoe and the Hundred-moth Caress. Maybe we can get some clarity from their descriptions. Here is their info.
Primeval Mistleto:
Item type: Untyped Permanent Held Item
Rarity: common; Item Level 6
Traits: Primal; Transmutation
Usage held in 1 hand
This sprig of berry-festooned holly and mistletoe doesn't wilt or rot. It can be used as a primal focus, and it also grants the creature holding it a +1 item bonus to Nature checks.
Activate Interact; Frequency once per 10 minutes; Effect You squeeze juice from one of the berries and smear it onto a club or staff to cast shillelagh upon it.
Activate Interact; Frequency once per day; Effect You can twine the sprig around the wrist of one hand and touch a tree to cast tree shape upon yourself, except instead of a becoming a tree, you become a vine on the touched tree.
Primeval Mistletoe performs a service so similar to that of a wand that it is functionally the same in most regards. Even without it usage as a primal focus, it is actually quite a bit stronger than most examples of specific wands of 6th level. One interesting additional point is that Primeval Mistletoe is the only Untyped Permanent Held Item that has the Primal trait. Also, it is just common? You can buy this at a store? At the local garden? That is funny to me.
Hundred-Moth Caress:
Item type: Permanent Held Item (Specific Magic Weapon)
Rarity: common; Item Level 8
Traits: Divine, Necromancy, Negative
Usage held in 2 hands
Base Weapon: Scythe
The handles of this +1 striking scythe are made from a dull, gray wood of bone-like consistency, and when you slice with it, a fluttering gust of hundreds of moths' wingbeats fills the air. If you're a devotee of Urgathoa, you can use this scythe as a divine focus, and with every Strike, it exudes a pallid cloud of powdery dust.
Activate command (divine, necromancy, negative); Frequency once per round; Effect You deal 1d10 negative damage to yourself. If your next action is to Strike with the scythe or to Cast a Spell with the disease or negative trait, that Strike or spell deals additional negative damage equal to the damage you took (after any reductions or increases from immunity, resistances, weaknesses).
The Hundred-Moth Caress, in my mind, sets the precedent that focus weapons can and do exist beyond those created with class feats. However unlike Primeval Mistletoe which is quite strong for its level, this weapon is of a average or below-average strength for a level 8 item if you remove it use as a Divine focus. The +1 striking rune are the norm from level 4-10 and its ability is solid enough with the right build and can be used very frequently. Keep in mind as well, this is not some random one-off item from an AP, this is published in the Secret of Magic rulebook. Also, it is, again, a common rarity item.
So yes, you can have whatever item you want for a focus component item. But it won't have any other mechanical impact other than being a focus component item.
I fear that this may just be a personal, and of course completely valid, interpretation of rules as intended, not an actual fact of RAW. It would be better if there was a focus component item type in RAW. It would remove any doubt about all of this, but there is no such thing as far as I can tell.
There are feats that let you get around that restriction, such as Emblazon Armament that you mentioned.
I think that if these feats were intended to simply circumnavigate some restriction, they would simply do so. They would just say "you may now use a weapon as a focus". Instead, they do much, much more than that (allow the PC to create a specialty item in minutes with no crafting checks, grant that item significant innate power, give that item much greater utility than another item of the same type and level). Nowhere do they say anything about removing a restriction. I believe that these feats are more about allowing the PC to have a super cool and renewal weapon or shield than they are about undoing some previous restriction.
If your PC can craft a focus weapon at level 1 or 2 with literally no effort or risk, how can it be that no other focus weapons are available in the world? In the case of the Cleric, all the ability says is that you emblazon your religious symbol on the item. That's it.
There are possibly specific items that are written to serve double duty. But unless you, your GM, and everyone else at the table are invoking the First Rule, then you can't just completely devalue those feats and items by allowing it generally for free.
This is 100% accurate, and I appreciate your feedback that you think this devalues the feat. RAW is just as limited as you have suggested under a conservative reading. If you plan to utilize only published work and to interpret lack of rulings as restrictions, then you will either need to take one of the class feats or use one of the two published items if you want your Primal or Divine focus to function as more than simply a focus. In this way you are inarguable correct.
The hand requirement feels like the only strict rule we need to observe here. A cleric holy symbol really does not need to be complicated. I would certainly consider it valid to just have your holy symbol painted onto your breastplate; so long as you met the free hand requirement. Affixing a small wooden or silver symbol to a different item sounds a lot like affixing a talisman and those do not interfere with the host item. It should work. Pay for the items separately. Certainly keep track of the combination. Which is to say, you might want a backup holy symbol if your primary is a greatsword. Might not always be convenient to brandish that greatsword.
Of course if your GM wants to interpret the free hand requirement strictly we do not have much to argue here. The rules offer little guidance. All I can say is that it seems reasonable.
Also Emblazon Armament feels like an unfair comparison. It offers bonuses other than just combining a thing with a focus. Whether that +1 is worth a feat is up to you, but I highly doubt the combined focus part eats up its power budget.
There are items that act as holy symbols/have holy symbol on them like Ancestral Embrace, Judgement Thurible, Bracers of Devotion, Glaive of the Artist, Guiding Chisel and Holy Prayer Beads.
Omg thank you so much. Absolutely brilliant. This increases the number of items I have for guidance so much. I have been missing these since I was search for "Divine Focus" instead of "Religious Symbol". You are right those that religious symbols can be used as divine foci.
What's more we have here examples of a Spellheart, a Worn Item, and another Weapon that could be used as foci. A couple more Untyped Held Items as well.
I am a little hesitant to homebrew worn foci. They seem very strong. The Ancestral Embrace armor is level 26. The bracers are a cool option, but they are specifically for Champions, not clerics, which give me pause. The spellheart is super cool though.
Where are all the items for Druids though? Druids are combat friendly. I want some focus weapons for them.
Soul Warden Dedication allows emblazoning of Pharasma's holy sigil on an item.
This dedication allows for religious symbols to be emblazoned on "a shield, tabard, banner, or other prominent object that your wear or wield". How interesting.
I'm not sure that holy symbols are factored into levels/cost at all: it seems more like a ribbon ability IMO. Myself, I'd use he Adjustments rules and just price it as a separate item cost.
Same. I kind of think that whether or not an item is a Primal or Divine focus should be designated with a trait or something.
The hand requirement feels like the only strict rule we need to observe here.
This seems important to me as well. What ever your focus is, it should probably need to be held to be used.
I generally agree with this, but I would point out that items are merged all the time in PF2e (ex. all staves can serve as melee staff weapons).
The difference is that staves are explicitly melee staff weapons, primeval mistletoe is explicitly a divine focus in addition to being a held item.
That's fundamentally different than simply declaring that your bastard sword is a divine focus or that your staff is a shield.
You talk about precedent, but the existence of these items, and feats like Emblazon and Verdant Seed point to the exact opposite: the ability to make other items qualify as a focus is a special property of that feat or item.
(Emblazon Armament) offers bonuses other than just combining a thing with a focus. Whether that +1 is worth a feat is up to you, but I highly doubt the combined focus part eats up its power budget.
Same. The feat is about having a strong weapon and being able to strengthen any new weapon at not cost. The feat is not just about the weapon being a focus.
It's not the only thing the feat does, but it's still clearly part of the feat.
The difference is that staves are explicitly melee staff weapons, primeval mistletoe is explicitly a divine focus in addition to being a held item.
I generally agree with this, but I would point out that items are merged all the time in PF2e (ex. all staves can serve as melee staff weapons).
Fair assessment. I think I was just trying to point out that if a Stave, which has a ton of utility, could also be a weapon, then perhaps a foci could also be a weapon.
I should likely have cited Coda Instruments, instead, which serve both as a Bard's instrument for substituting somatic and material component as well as a stave for casting spells and attacking as a staff. This point actually gets to me a bit. Coda instruments are amazing! They act as the bard's instrument, which is essentially equivalent to a Druids primal focus or a Clerics divine focus, and then do so much more. So much bard love. Hook the druids up Paizo!
That's fundamentally different than simply declaring that your bastard sword is a divine focus or that your staff is a shield.
No one is trying to suggest that a staff is a shield. Also, no one is trying arbitrarily declare that their sword is a focus, we are try to do so very carefully and decidedly and are trying to figure if it is possible under RAW.
You talk about precedent, but the existence of these items, and feats like Emblazon and Verdant Seed point to the exact opposite: the ability to make other items qualify as a focus is a special property of that feat or item.
See ReyalsKanras's assessment of the real power of the Emblazon Armament feat and my own assessment of the Verdant Weapon feat above. Most of the power of these feat lies outside of the whole focus thing. This is an opinion, and if you feel that using a focus weapon in your game devalues the feats, then you should not use them. However that would be your interpretation of rules as intended, not necessary a immutable fact of RAW.
As far as the item are concerned, in the GM guide, which is RAW, Paizo specifically encourages the creation of new items using preexisting items as a reference. The existence of the published focus items does, indeed, set the precedent that other items like them can exist in the game.
It's not the only thing the feat does, but it's still clearly part of the feat.
I do hear you and I see your point. That is a totally fair assessment. I just want to pose this to you in one more way.
Does the fact that a level 2 cleric is able to spend 10 minutes emblazoning their religious symbol onto their shield, thus rendering it more powerful in their hands and granting it use as a divine focus, really outlaw the ability of other PCs and NPCs to craft a shield that can serve as a religious symbol by utilizing the standard 4-day crafting activity?
If you think that it does outlaw that sort of thing, I can still see your point of view but I do not share it and I do not think it is directly supported by RAW. I also am not sure that my view is completely supported by RAW which is why I began this discussion. RAW is a little too unclear on Primal and Divine foci.
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The Cassock of Devotion and Cloister Robes are worn items that count as a Religious Symbols, and explicitly say they do not need to be wielded to serve that function.
The Cassock of Devotion and Cloister Robes are worn items that count as a Religious Symbols, and explicitly say they do not need to be wielded to serve that function.
Nice! And they are both from official rule books to boot. I also found a shield that serves as a religious symbol, the Forge Warden, in the CRB.
There are way more items that can be divine Foci than I initially thought. At this point weapons, shields, worn items, held items, and spellhearts are all represented among the previously published items that specifically state that they are religious symbol or can be used as a divine focus.
I think that we have confirmed, to the best of our abilities, that foci can take the form of many different types of permanent items.
The items for Druids are essentially unavailable with only the Primeval Mistletoe to fill the role. I'd say, given the similarities between Divine and Primal foci, that it would likely be balanced for GMs to homebrew some primal foci based on the divine foci that are published.
Fair assessment. You are right, and this all kind of points towards something that was said higher up in the discussion that the ability of an item to serve as a Primal or Divine focus is somewhat of a ribbon ability and should only increase the level of the item by 1 or less given no other changes to the item. I personally would add the uncommon trait just for fun so that I can make sure the item is awarded via a formula or adventuring.
Perhaps some guidance for worn items that serve as foci is that they should likely become available at around 10th level, offer some reasonable once per day action or free action, offer a +1 or +2 item bonus to a skill, and not serve as armor. But I suppose a level 4 or 5 worn item that was solely useful as a foci might not be too broken either. That is just my take. We are well into the realm of GM opinion here.
When I first began searching for items that can serve as foci in Archive of Nethys, I was using the key words "primal focus" and "divine focus". Since then it has been brought to my attention that most divine foci do not refer to themselves as such in the item description, but rather the description will indicate that the item can serve as a "religious symbol". It is clear in the descriptions of these items that "religious symbol" and "divine focus" are interchangeable terms.
A particularly clear example of this can be found in the description the Faith Tattoo which says this about the item:
Faith Tattoo; Item Level 4+
Rarity: Common; Traits: Divine, Invested, Tattoo
Usage tattooed on the body
Prerequisite worshipper of a deity, alignment matching the deity's follower alignments
You have marked your body to show your devotion to a deity. This tattoo could be the deity's religious symbol, another image that evokes that deity, or another mark you gained through your devotion. The tattoo serves as a silver religious symbol of the deity. Provided you keep the tattoo uncovered, you need not wield it to gain that benefit.
...Activation, cost, etc...
The benefit it is describing is clearly its use as a divine focus.
So I did some digging and found that, in terms of published items, religious symbols are available in the following forms (Note: this list includes only items that specifically state that they "serve as" or "are" a "religious symbol" or a "divine focus" and does not include items with flavor statements like "is adorned with religious symbols"):
Notably absent are wands, staves, and consumables of any type. I doubt that this lack of representation is really worth digging into too much (i.e., I doubt that given the number of other types of items available as foci, that wands, staves, and consumables are 'illegal' for some reason). This is especially true in the case of wands and consumables which are considerably limited to begin with and not likely to unbalance the game (imo). A stave that functions as a religious symbol may or may not be particularly strong (idk, I don't have much actual experience with staves in-game).
If you buy into the idea that the rules and numerical balance of published items set the precedent for potential items as outlined in the GM guide, then it seems that a Divine Focus could likely take the form of potentially any item held, permanent, or otherwise as long as it truly represents the religion/deity of the cleric who wields it. Perhaps it would be unlikely for the God of Peaceful Artistic Expression to have a two-handed battle axe as a religious symbol.
I am sure this applies to Primal Foci as well, but they really, truly are almost entirely unrepresented among the published items apart from the Primeval Mistletoe.