If half dragons are finally coming then hype!!!! I love dragons!!!
But I do have a concern
If half dragons are coming, I hope it can be versatile in appearance
I already know some people are going to go for the “human with horns” like D&D3e’s half dragons, but me and others are gonna want a very draconic look, with a head like a dragon and a tail and full scales and everything, like half dragons in D&D5e or Belmazog. https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=1546 https://www.worldanvil.com/uploads/images/7e10fc404270ff23ab418867bebbee23. jpg
Belmazog is a half black dragon, and she has a very strong draconic appearence, and that draconic appearance is what I would like. I think she is from the ApA adventure for PF2e
But some people are just gonna wanna play a half dragon that looks like a human with horns and maybe a couple scales, like Au’ra from final fantasy
If half dragons are coming, they should have versatile appeared like Nagaji. Nagaji could look like a human with a couple scales or maybe just serpent eyes, or they could look very snake like with snake head tail and everything
I don’t want to be forced to give my half dragon a “human with horns look”. I like my half dragons to show physically they have a dragon parent and to look tall and have a dragon head and tail and clawed feet and everything
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Unlikely. This would make them very close to the 5e Dragonborn.
OK, this concept isn't quite a WotC invention, the concept of humanoid draconians is reassembled in several different non-D&D stories beforehand. But proving it can be difficult. I don't know if Paizo will want to mess with this wasp nest now.
Also a medium draconian race would compete with the Kobolds, I don't know how interesting that would be for the game itself.
Unlikely. This would make them very close to the 5e Dragonborn.
OK, this concept isn't quite a WotC invention, the concept of humanoid draconians is reassembled in several different non-D&D stories beforehand. But proving it can be difficult. I don't know if Paizo will want to mess with this wasp nest now.
Paizo said they want to bring Wyvaren back into the game in the future, and they are humanoid dragons
And so many games and things have humanoid dragons. World of Warcraft’s playable Dracthyr race for example: https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/wowpedia/images/a/ab/Geradran.png/revisio n/latest?cb=20220924142422
Honestly, PF2e could even get away with having dragon humanoids called Dragonborn, though they would admittably be risky
As long as they don’t call half dragons or wyvaran “Dragonborn”, Paizo will be fine
Man I can’t wait for Wyvaren
I can literally just hop on WoW and mess with transmog to get “art” for my character, no need to commission or find art (though I might still commission cause supporting artists makes me happy)
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Did you see anything that makes you think half-dragon heritage is on its way?
Personally, I'd like Wyvaran to be the "looks very dragonlike humanoid ancestry" and Half-Dragon should be "adding varying amounts of dragon flavor to a base ancestry".
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Did you see anything that makes you think half-dragon heritage is on its way?
Personally, I'd like Wyvaran to be the "looks very dragonlike humanoid ancestry" and Half-Dragon should be "adding varying amounts of dragon flavor to a base ancestry".
I'm noticing a pattern with Relyk, they REALLY like dragons. A lot
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If half dragons are finally coming then hype!!!! I love dragons!!!
But I do have a concern
If half dragons are coming, I hope it can be versatile in appearance
I already know some people are going to go for the “human with horns” like D&D3e’s half dragons, but me and others are gonna want a very draconic look, with a head like a dragon and a tail and full scales and everything, like half dragons in D&D5e or Belmazog. https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=1546 https://www.worldanvil.com/uploads/images/7e10fc404270ff23ab418867bebbee23. jpg
Belmazog is a half black dragon, and she has a very strong draconic appearence, and that draconic appearance is what I would like. I think she is from the ApA adventure for PF2e
But some people are just gonna wanna play a half dragon that looks like a human with horns and maybe a couple scales, like Au’ra from final fantasy
If half dragons are coming, they should have versatile appeared like Nagaji. Nagaji could look like a human with a couple scales or maybe just serpent eyes, or they could look very snake like with snake head tail and everything
I don’t want to be forced to give my half dragon a “human with horns look”. I like my half dragons to show physically they have a dragon parent and to look tall and have a dragon head and tail and clawed feet and everything
I think you've conflated Vishkanya and Nagaji. All Nagaji look like "snake" people except Sacred who look like "snake mermaids".
Vishkanya are the *other* snake people who look like humans with yellow eyes, faint fangs, and maybe some scales.
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Just a heads-up, we have zero indication about what the versatile heritage is, other than "it's not an existing one". Not an unreasonable guess, but no reason to start worrying about details of something not even confirmed.
That said, doubly don't worry about this. What would Paizo even put in a draconic versatile heritage if they completely stripped out feats for physical features? Furthermore, it's a versatile heritage. Suppose it happens and it's missing something you want, like a bite attack- you could take it on Lizardfolk/Iruxi, who have feats for claws, bite, and tail attacks.
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I'm noticing a pattern with Relyk, they REALLY like dragons. A lotDid you see anything that makes you think half-dragon heritage is on its way?
Personally, I'd like Wyvaran to be the "looks very dragonlike humanoid ancestry" and Half-Dragon should be "adding varying amounts of dragon flavor to a base ancestry".
Having a special interest isn’t a crime (if it is, my 6k posts here will get me taken away), but I do wish OP luck in stressing about theirs a little less. All these books are like a year away.
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Having a special interest isn’t a crime (if it is, my 6k posts here will get me taken away), but I do wish OP luck in stressing about theirs a little less. All these books are like a year away.I'm noticing a pattern with Relyk, they REALLY like dragons. A lotDid you see anything that makes you think half-dragon heritage is on its way?
Personally, I'd like Wyvaran to be the "looks very dragonlike humanoid ancestry" and Half-Dragon should be "adding varying amounts of dragon flavor to a base ancestry".
It was not a criticism or a slight. I find it a bit endearing actually
I built my wife a dragon mtg deck for commander after all
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Having a special interest isn’t a crime (if it is, my 6k posts here will get me taken away), but I do wish OP luck in stressing about theirs a little less. All these books are like a year away.I'm noticing a pattern with Relyk, they REALLY like dragons. A lotDid you see anything that makes you think half-dragon heritage is on its way?
Personally, I'd like Wyvaran to be the "looks very dragonlike humanoid ancestry" and Half-Dragon should be "adding varying amounts of dragon flavor to a base ancestry".
It was not a criticism or a slight. I find it a bit endearing actually
I built my wife a dragon mtg deck for commander after all
I’m obsessed with dragons, but that’s something I love about myself
I’m glad you find it endearing.
There are some people who think “obsessing” or really liking a particular thing is a problem or other issues and are judgmental, which is wrong to think. There are people who have given me issue over it, such as some demanding I play something other than half dragon or Dragonborn in D&D servers, as if what I am playing effects them when it doesn’t. It’s what brings me joy and makes me happy you know? I don’t like My Little Pony at all but a lot of people are obsessed with it and call themselves “bronies” which is perfectly fine and I’m glad they found joy in that, even if it isn’t my thing
I’m fine with people teasing me over it though, people in my IRL D&D tease me and joke about my dragon obsession but that’s all in good fun.
Fun fact: my dragon obsession began with Wings of Fire by tui Sutherland. #Qinter
But yeah, I didn’t think you meant it as a criticism or a slight, even if it got perceived that way due to the way it was written
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My personal hope is that the new heritage isn't dragon-related, because I have the dragon scion versatile heritage from Battlezoo to scratch that itch.
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There are tons of PFS players who would love a Paizo-created half-dragon versatile heritage, though, and I'm one of them.
(I'm currently scratching that itch with sylphs descended from Cloud Dragons in the Mwangi Expanse, but I'd love something more official.)
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Ganzi are also great if someone just wants a sick scales and/or feathers aesthetic--like, a tail or frills or whatever. Ganzi feel so underrated to me.
Personally, I'm selfishly very excited for people to get more dragon content because it might mean they finally ease up on the dragon-y kobold stuff. Less focus on kobolds being cool because of who they're related to, more focus on kobolds being cool because they're hot because they're hot is this thing broken because they're the iconic "evil minion who just clocked in, and honestly, it's a Monday, so they are not feeling it, go ahead, adventurers, just don't mess with the vending machine" ancestry.
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Ganzi are also great if someone just wants a sick scales and/or feathers aesthetic--like, a tail or frills or whatever. Ganzi feel so underrated to me.
Personally, I'm selfishly very excited for people to get more dragon content because it might mean they finally ease up on the dragon-y kobold stuff. Less focus on kobolds being cool because of who they're related to, more focus on kobolds being cool
because they're hotbecause they're hotis this thing brokenbecause they're the iconic "evil minion who just clocked in, and honestly, it's a Monday, so they are not feeling it, go ahead, adventurers, just don't mess with the vending machine" ancestry.
Ourn partners halfling ganzi, had a unicorn horn, fangs, bear ears, coutal traits, and a bunch more. she was adorable.
I love the dragon-kobold connection but would also love to see kobold lore, culture expanded beyond it as well.
If we were to get half-dragons I think they should be portrayed with a wide variety of apperances. Tbh Versatile heritages are great for this already, one of my favorite aspects of the Ancestry Guide was that it left a paragraph for how various heritages may manifest in the core ancestries and seeing the wide variety there was incredible.
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Just a heads-up, we have zero indication about what the versatile heritage is, other than "it's not an existing one". Not an unreasonable guess, but no reason to start worrying about details of something not even confirmed.
That said, doubly don't worry about this. What would Paizo even put in a draconic versatile heritage if they completely stripped out feats for physical features? Furthermore, it's a versatile heritage. Suppose it happens and it's missing something you want, like a bite attack- you could take it on Lizardfolk/Iruxi, who have feats for claws, bite, and tail attacks.
Yep, no details have been confirmed.
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You know, it wouldn't be so bad if PFS colored outside the lines and admitted some 3rd party content. Stuff created by former Paizo devs seems quite appropriate. (YMMV)
They never will though. If they accept BattleZoo, they'd have to accept all 3rd party content.
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I know nothing about PFS, but they have the freedom to disallow Paizo content, right? I feel like they'd be able to refuse individual works of 3rd-party content. They'd have to at least consider all of it, though, and that alone would be opening the floodgates to more labor than they could possibly sustain. I've been recently educated about the follies of this idea, Jake. It'd be cool, but it doesn't seem likely to happen.
My personal hope is that the new heritage isn't dragon-related, because I have the dragon scion versatile heritage from Battlezoo to scratch that itch.
The issue with that is lots of people ban 3pp (especially and unfortunately mainly westmarches), not to mention PFS doesn’t allow 3pp
Yep, no details have been confirmed.Just a heads-up, we have zero indication about what the versatile heritage is, other than "it's not an existing one". Not an unreasonable guess, but no reason to start worrying about details of something not even confirmed.
That said, doubly don't worry about this. What would Paizo even put in a draconic versatile heritage if they completely stripped out feats for physical features? Furthermore, it's a versatile heritage. Suppose it happens and it's missing something you want, like a bite attack- you could take it on Lizardfolk/Iruxi, who have feats for claws, bite, and tail attacks.
Yeah, not confirmed
It is highly likely it is half dragon considering PC2 deals with dragons heavily, but not confirmed
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I know nothing about PFS, but they have the freedom to disallow Paizo content, right? I feel like they'd be able to refuse individual works of 3rd-party content. They'd have to at least consider all of it, though, and that alone would be opening the floodgates to more labor than they could possibly sustain. I've been recently educated about the follies of this idea, Jake. It'd be cool, but it doesn't seem likely to happen.
The bolded part is the key part. A lot of work goes into deciding what gets accepted for PFS or not.
Yeah, that was what I mainly meant! I'd like to say I wanted to head off any pedantry, but who am I kidding, I was being pedantic myself. :P
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But some people are just gonna wanna play a half dragon that looks like a human with horns and maybe a couple scales, like Au’ra from final fantasy
*raises hand* Me, That's me! For myself, I prefer the more human-like ancestries as I relate to them easier. It's why I'll most likely never play a Conrasu but happily play a catfolk, especially as pathfinder allows them to "vary widely in how feline they appear. Some display few catlike features: just feline ears, a tail, claws, and a little fur or other features. Others are so catlike that they’re hard to distinguish from true panthers when not standing upright or wielding weapons." [Pathfinder #152: Legacy of the Lost God pg. 56]
So, it doesn't have to be an either-or situation, but could allow for a spectrum of appearances.
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Honestly, I wish more ancestries had that sort of vagueness. Goblins and kobolds, for example, feel very rigid in their depictions, and it means I basically have to ignore the canon lore to design a goblin or kobold PC I enjoy.
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I really need to design a pf2e kobold character just because the pf2e depictions delight me to no end. A wide head, perfect for pats!
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That is a very good reason to like the new design!
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But some people are just gonna wanna play a half dragon that looks like a human with horns and maybe a couple scales, like Au’ra from final fantasy*raises hand* Me, That's me! For myself, I prefer the more human-like ancestries as I relate to them easier. It's why I'll most likely never play a Conrasu but happily play a catfolk, especially as pathfinder allows them to "vary widely in how feline they appear. Some display few catlike features: just feline ears, a tail, claws, and a little fur or other features. Others are so catlike that they’re hard to distinguish from true panthers when not standing upright or wielding weapons." [Pathfinder #152: Legacy of the Lost God pg. 56]
So, it doesn't have to be an either-or situation, but could allow for a spectrum of appearances.
Yep!
*insert handshake meme with “Graystone’s human like half dragon” on the left and “CaptainRelyk’s Dragon like half dragon” on the right, with the middle saying “half dragon versatile heritage”*
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Honestly, I wish more ancestries had that sort of vagueness. Goblins and kobolds, for example, feel very rigid in their depictions, and it means I basically have to ignore the canon lore to design a goblin or kobold PC I enjoy.
Well, the art has some different depections: for instance, this is what a Kobold Scout looks like, which, IMO, is VASTLY better than the newt look of the other images: It's the type I make my kobolds look like. Goblins do stay pretty much the same, though I like Monkey goblins the best.
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I know these shiny new Remaster dragons are likely to get the focus for such a thing, but it'd be killer to get options for the other non-OGL dragons down the line; between the Imperials in Tian Xia, and how cool a bunch of the others are (the formerly-Primal dragons, the Outer dragons), there's lots of ground to cover.
The chance to be a Half-Void Dragon/Android would be so perfectly indulgent.
EDIT: Man, I'm sad PF2 doesn't have Outer dragons yet. It's increasingly looking like we need a whole Wyrmkin supplement...
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I know these shiny new Remaster dragons are likely to get the focus for such a thing, but it'd be killer to get options for the other non-OGL dragons down the line; between the Imperials in Tian Xia, and how cool a bunch of the others are (the formerly-Primal dragons, the Outer dragons), there's lots of ground to cover.
The chance to be a Half-Void Dragon/Android would be so perfectly indulgent.
EDIT: Man, I'm sad PF2 doesn't have Outer dragons yet. It's increasingly looking like we need a whole Wyrmkin supplement...
A half void drvaon android seems cool but does it make sense? Can androids reproduce?
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And androids are made, not born. One could always be crafted along more draconic lines; IIRC the only reason they look like humans is because their creches were originally designed by Androffan humans.
Starfinder says hello.
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I agree that it would be unlikely that PFS will be able to handle 3rd party content, but it seems like it would be pretty easy for some of the bigger 3rd party content makers to have specially sanctioned lodges or online communities that run Living world campaigns with their content with Paizo's nod of approval (probably not official PFS support, but they might not need it if they have a couple of dedicated GMs and can have their own reward systems for playing PFS content. I know most 3rd party folks won't have the resources, but I am sure some of the larger ones already have their own online communities of decent size and could swing it. Then folks who feel like they can never use 3rd party material in play would have communities they could be directed to if there was content they really wanted to play...(like how desperately I want to play a Pnoll).
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Are not the Wyvarans essentially wyverny and not dragony?
Are not the Wyvarans essentially wyverny and not dragony?
Having usable forelimbs pushes them closer to draconic, imo?
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So many westmarches and living worlds avoiding 3pp… it’s a damn shame
That seems kind of expected to me. It's hard enough to get the folks together to set one of those up, let alone get all the GMs involved to agree on additional third party material they all need to get and review. Battlezoo stuff is cool, but letting any player be a dragon, mimic, dungeon, or ooze is definitely not what a lot of people are going to have in mind for their setting. If it's a lone GM, you can talk with them about a concept and get buy-in from fellow players about playing alongside a dragon character, but setting up the default assumptions for a bunch of players? That's certainly not impossible, but it probably has to start from the goal of "letting a bunch of players play wacky things" or "promoting third-party content" rather than the usual idea for a setting or plot.
Sorry for the long-winded speech. Just... Spelling out why you're unlikely to stumble across that without starting it yourself, paying someone to do it, or adjusting how you represent the character concepts. We'll probably get a synthesist summoner at some point, so you can likely eventually play a dragon that way. (It's a Summoner that summons their eidolon around themselves.)
Are not the Wyvarans essentially wyverny and not dragony?
They’re Kobolds with Drake wings, is my understanding.
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Are not the Wyvarans essentially wyverny and not dragony?They’re Kobolds with Drake wings, is my understanding.
They are medium sized kobold/wyvern hybrids with wings, a long slapping tail, fangs and claws. Overall they keep a kobold look [the old version, not the new newt look] Here are 2 images of them:
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Personally, I didn't know that lore and don't think I really like it, so I'd love to see Paizo move away from it and towards giving wyvaran their own unique identity. Hobgoblins just being Tall Goblins was a pretty substantial disappointment for me--as fun as their art is, it feels like a huge missed opportunity for a more unique design. I don't think we need Tall Winged Kobolds.
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Personally, I didn't know that lore and don't think I really like it, so I'd love to see Paizo move away from it and towards giving wyvaran their own unique identity. Hobgoblins just being Tall Goblins was a pretty substantial disappointment for me--as fun as their art is, it feels like a huge missed opportunity for a more unique design. I don't think we need Tall Winged Kobolds.
*shrug* They make sense as much as a griffon does. Someone got the bright idea one day to take 2 creatures and make them 1 creature...
More info: Wyvarans are the result of magical cross-breeding between wyverns and kobolds. Wyvarans are territorial and tribal, protective of their wealth and allow no interlopers into their lands without good reason or proper tribute. On Golarion, wyvarans are native to the Shattered Range in Garund and are most populous on the continent. Young wyvarans sometimes travel to Alkenstar, Nex, Katapesh, and beyond to seek their fortunes.
I'm not saying it doesn't make sense. I don't care about that kind of realism in my settings. I just think that making wyvarans "half-kobolds" is sort of a waste of your draconic ancestry. I generally like an ancestry to have its own distinct lore and design instead of being dependent on/built off of another's--it gives them more room to breathe and be their own thing.
At the same time, I recognize that's how it's always been, and I accept that most people like wyvarans just the way they are! I'm just stating my tastes.
It's worth saying that in a Reddit AMA ~November, I poked Luis about Wyvarans and he essentially said that they still exist, but need a firmer place in the lore than they currently have. He wanted a more intentional home for them than just "in the Shattered Range, I guess," so I have hope we'll see them somewhere soon.
My preference would be for them to keep the PF2 Kobold slab-heads, though. I think they're very cute, and you can tweak them on a Medium body to look significantly less silly.
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Yeah, I fully expect some tinkering to Wyvaran to carve out a cool identity beyond magical experiment #4244230. I'd like to see Wyvaran keep close ties to their kobold roots.
My head canon is that they're a mutation that inevitably occurs in a population of kobolds that has become stable, well-fed, and happy. They display more of the grandeur of their people's true dragon blood, historically becoming protectors of their clans. However, their increased resemblance to true dragons makes their evil dragon masters uncomfortable, and it is they who spread the myths about them being related to the lowly Wyvern instead, and also keep those that serve them underfed and obedient.