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Note that Antipaladin as the CE opposite of the LG Paladin is completely a child of the alignment grid.
Since we're getting rid of it, what will define a Paladin vs a Tyrant or a Liberator ?
My guess : the reaction they choose (ie, the Cause, without its alignment component).
Based on the Destructive Vengeance reaction of the Antipaladin, I could call their Cause the Destroyer. Though I still prefer Wrecker.
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This speaks to the basic asymmetry between Good and Evil in the game- specifically that Good is positioned as aspirational in a way that Evil is not. Good characters have to avoid committing Evil acts in order to avoid "not being Good anymore" but Evil characters don't have any similar pitfalls (even if you do commit an act of kindness, you can still spin it as selfish).So you get Good champions who are about "being a good person who does the most good they can in the best way they can manage" (the three flavors just disagree on "what is best") the Evil champions don't really mirror that.
The 1e antipaladin tried to mirror the paladin more directly and it ended up being really awkward, because having an "aspirationally" evil code was weirdly constraining and goofy.
But isn't "I'm going to do what I want, without a care for how it affects anyone, and won't let anybody stand in my way" more the NE Champion than the CE one?
It depends on how you view law and chaos.
If you represent Chaos as the absence of Law and Order, then CE would be completely untethered by any obligation to Lawful (or Good) principles, whereas a NE character would be more moderate on the L-C Axis. This makes sense because Law is defined by rules and Chaos its absence, so a Neutral character would by definition have a stronger set of principles than a Chaotic one (though both less than a Lawful character).
If you represent Chaos and Law purely as equal and opposite forces, then the NE character gets to be more opportunistic because the CE character is constrained somewhat by their connections to Chaos as a high concept (constrained by chaos is kind of an awkward idea, though). This makes sense because Chaos is a literal cosmic force in Pathfinder, and aligns with some cosmological truths about the setting.
In other words, is the scale 100 to 0, or 100 to -100 with 0 at Neutral?
This sort of "active" vs "passive" alignment I feel like is the source of a lot of disagreement I tend to see that isn't simply part of a misunderstanding or miscommunication. The problem is they're both valid and logical readings, yet somewhat incompatible.
It's also a little awkward because it tends to be asymmetrical: Good vs Evil I almost always see represented in the former way , but Law vs Chaos often in the latter.
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I know it wouldn't fit exactly in world, but Nidal Lapdog would be a very clever play on being the opposite of a god (following) Paladin.
I don't think calling it "anarch" or "iconoclast" is smart. I think you could argue (when alignment was a thing) CG characters and dieties could be at times iconoclasts and often anarchistic
Idk what to name the thing tho. I would say "defiler" but it is too close to desecrator
***Edit***
Looking it up to reave is to "plunder, pillage, rob, pirate or remove". So actually, Reaver sounds pretty alright
I don't think Paizo would be sued for using either of these terms, but both of these terms have established meanings to old time nerds. "Defiler" is what TSR called their evil plant destroying wizards in the Dark Sun setting, and "Reavers" are famous villains from the Firefly TV setting.
DARK SUN FOREVER
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I do hope that they take the opportunity to make the unholy champions less "complete nightmares to have in a party" and more "literally anything else."
Honestly, I'm a little surprised we don't have the Neutral champions yet. Although it is a little weird to imagine a champion of Lawful Neutral or Chaotic Neutral or Neutral Neutral too. I still remember AD&D 2E's attempt at defining THOSE two.
I will admit 'antipaladin' feels clunky. 'Reaver' does fit, assuming it's not a protected name from another franchise. 'Ravager' could fit too.
I do hope that they take the opportunity to make the unholy champions less "complete nightmares to have in a party" and more "literally anything else."
Running a campaign right now with a Tyrant champion that isn't that bad - mostly because "Mercilessly enforce established hierarchies" means they're willing to accept royalty giving them a quest, and they also consider one of the non-evil party members as their master who is allowed to order them around. Both of which help keep things in line.
Desecrator & Antipaladin admittedly look harder to manage.
I don't care what they do, just as long as:
(1) They realize that "selfish" reactions don't play well with Shield Block as a free feat, and should likely offer more alternatives to getting Shield Block,
...
This is important to note. An evil champion never really wants to use shield block because it'd prevent them from using their class reaction.
Also the "selfish" reactions kinda work against the theme of the class. Part of being the class with heavy armor and likely to have the highest AC in the party means you generally are serving as a "tank" in the group.
The good causes act as tanks by discouraging enemies from attacking allies with their reactions, tempting them to attack the champion despite the High AC. The evil causes instead double down on making enemies want to ignore you and kill your squishier allies first, since you have both the highest AC and punish those who hit you.
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Honestly, I'm a little surprised we don't have the Neutral champions yet. Although it is a little weird to imagine a champion of Lawful Neutral or Chaotic Neutral or Neutral Neutral too.How come?
It's just getting the champion class and tie it to a LN, N or CN deity, depends the champion.
Then give them 1 reaction, a lvl 1 feat that enhances their reaction and finally remove the tennet part ( or add tennets of neutrality, but I wonder how to make some good ones).
But in the end it's just a character being a champion of their deity. It's more weird that some deity can't have champions, in my opinion.
Championing a Neutral deity isn't the issue. It's more the tenets of neutrality.
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Just for fun:
Scantypaladin: Worships Calistria.
Plantypaladin: Armored Leshy.
Can'typaladin: Too many anathemas.
Shantypaladin: Soon may the wellerman come!
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I always felt “antipaladin” was a bit lazy. Hey let’s create a class that is the opposite of paladin… oh yeah let’s slap “anti” on it and call it a day
I like ravager, I haven’t even heard of the term Reaver until today tbh
Though maybe naming it Reaver will introduce more people to the term
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Without my glasses on this morning, I totally misread the thread title as "Antipaladin Resume".
Send your antipaladin resume to Hedley Lamarr.
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I always felt “antipaladin” was a bit lazy. Hey let’s create a class that is the opposite of paladin… oh yeah let’s slap “anti” on it and call it a day
I like ravager, I haven’t even heard of the term Reaver until today tbh
Though maybe naming it Reaver will introduce more people to the term
I think the "anti" for Antipaladin was originally designed to parallel Christianity. That is, there is a Christ, and then there is an Antichrist. Given that Golarion has nothing to do with the religious beliefs on Earth, I don't much find this name to be a relevant or fair one compared to the ones given to the other Evil causes.
Somebody suggested Destroyer before, and that probably makes the most sense, since you damage yourself to further damage others who have hurt you, seeking a goal of sheer and utter destruction. But honestly, it should be rebalanced, since you can come into situations where you take more damage than the opponent from just the reaction.
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There's also been 40-some Antipopes in earth history.
There's also been 40-some Antipopes in earth history.
If memory serves, officially that just means someone who claimed papacy but didn't merit it. Less 'opposite of' and more 'fake'.
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There's also been 40-some Antipopes in earth history.If memory serves, officially that just means someone who claimed papacy but didn't merit it. Less 'opposite of' and more 'fake'.
... I would love a handful of evil champion feats centered around pretending to be a good champion. Lay On Hands, but the healed damage reappears after an hour, that kind of thing.
... I would love a handful of evil champion feats centered around pretending to be a good champion. Lay On Hands, but the healed damage reappears after an hour, that kind of thing.There's also been 40-some Antipopes in earth history.If memory serves, officially that just means someone who claimed papacy but didn't merit it. Less 'opposite of' and more 'fake'.
Agreed. One of the most Evil things a Champion could do is undermine the forces of Good by masquerading as one of them, only to cause issue with them before the forces of Good realize it.
Given that Champions already lack a good amount of neat feats to build around, this should be something explored by the Evil champions, at least.
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... I would love a handful of evil champion feats centered around pretending to be a good champion. Lay On Hands, but the healed damage reappears after an hour, that kind of thing.There's also been 40-some Antipopes in earth history.If memory serves, officially that just means someone who claimed papacy but didn't merit it. Less 'opposite of' and more 'fake'.Agreed. One of the most Evil things a Champion could do is undermine the forces of Good by masquerading as one of them, only to cause issue with them before the forces of Good realize it.
Given that Champions already lack a good amount of neat feats to build around, this should be something explored by the Evil champions, at least.
I mean given that an antipope is someone who falsely claims to be the legitimate pope (undermining that guy's authority, I guess), and the antichrist is supposed to be a fake messiah who does miracles, and leads people, but to ill-ends. It may be that the problem with the "antipaladin" is that you are less "the deceitful one who passes for a fake paladin" and more "you are a maniac whose crimes are myriad and obvious."
NE Champions have a lot of stuff about corruption, so they'd probably be the ones that would fit the best instead. But it'd be cool for them to have more tools for that baked in.
Hopefully the new edicts mean that there will be a bit more flexibility on the types of evil.
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I'm all for a rename but what I'm really for is a rework of the terrible reaction of said champion, it is unbearable
Theoretically speaking, what would a Champion of Lamashtu or Urgathoa be without alignment?
Those are just two off the top of my head -- 'antipaladin' doesn't fit, nor does Tyrant.
Desecrator might work for the Pallid Princess, but I'm having a hard time with the Mother of Nightmares.
Theoretically speaking, what would a Champion of Lamashtu or Urgathoa be without alignment?
Those are just two off the top of my head -- 'antipaladin' doesn't fit, nor does Tyrant.
Desecrator might work for the Pallid Princess, but I'm having a hard time with the Mother of Nightmares.
For Ugathoa, I'd also say Desecrator is by far the best fit. Tyrants kind of work, as satisfying your lust for power and dominion would fall under her "sate your appetites" edict. Antipaladins just don't work, as they are too self-destructive and she'd have none of that.
Lamashtu is more of the same to me. She is all about corruption and twisting mortals to her ideals. A Desecrator would fit that mould quite well. A Tyrant could satisfy her "bring power to outcasts and the downtrodden" (becoming the leader of an enclave of outcasts for example or some kind of evil messiah) and "indoctrinate children in Lamashtu’s teachings". Antipaladin just doesn't give me the vibe, but then it rarely does for much beyond Rovagug.
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Theoretically speaking, what would a Champion of Lamashtu or Urgathoa be without alignment?
Those are just two off the top of my head -- 'antipaladin' doesn't fit, nor does Tyrant.
Desecrator might work for the Pallid Princess, but I'm having a hard time with the Mother of Nightmares.
Desecrator works fine for Lamashtu. "Reveal the corruption and flaws in all things", "Subvert or corrupt everything in your path that is pure and good, and sow doubt among those upholding such ideals", and "Make the beautiful monstrous" all fit together great, to the point where I found it weird that you couldn't play a Desecrator of Lamashtu under the alignment rules.