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No, that rule just means you don't have to have a hand completely free to draw or use the scroll. It should take a total of 3 actions to cast enlarge from a scroll (draw, 2-action cast). The benefit is not requiring Trick Magic Item and the additional action that comes with it and your scrolls scale off your class DC.
I think he is claiming "Scroll Thaumaturgy" allows him to do this, that's why it's in the title.
The title does not have impact on game mechanics. You don't have to shout, "That's Odd" in order to use the That's Odd Investigator ability, and you don't have to use your foot to do Head Stomp.
The Scroll Thaumaturgy feat does exactly what it says it does and changes nothing unless it says it changes it.
So without the feat, a Thaumaturge character could only use scrolls if they either have Trick Magic Item or have spent feats on a spellcasting archetype to get a spellcasting class feature. And casting a spell from a scroll takes the normal number of actions that casting the spell does. In order to cast from the scroll, you must be holding it in one hand - and that hand must be otherwise empty.
Scroll Thaumaturgy says that you do not need to have a spellcasting class feature or Trick Magic Item in order to cast any scroll that you can get your hands on. You simply cast them normally using your class DC. It also says that you can properly hold a scroll in the same hand as you are holding an implement.
Scroll Thaumaturgy does not change the number of actions needed in order to cast a scroll.
If possible could you also clear up what this means in the feat? Does it mean he doesn't need to put away an implement to use a scroll?
What this means is that there is some action and item usage improvements from the feat as it regards to using Scrolls.
Normally you would have to empty one of your hands in order to draw and cast a scroll. Which for a Thaumaturge means that they would have to put away or drop either the weapon that they are fighting with or the Implement that they are using to power their abilities. So one action to put away the Implement, another action to draw the scroll, and then two actions to cast Enlarge from the scroll.
With Scroll Thaumaturgy, you can be holding the Implement and a scroll with the same hand at the same time. So it is valid to start combat already holding the scroll and the Implement in one hand and a weapon in the other. And both the Scroll and the Implement can be used. So now when the Thaumaturge is holding an Implement in one hand and their weapon in the other, they only have to spend one action to draw a scroll, and then two actions to cast Enlarge from it. And if they are already holding the scroll at the start of combat, they would not need to spend an action drawing it.
Nothing about "scroll thaumaturgy" changes the action economy (directly) for scroll usage.
Casting a spell from a scroll requires having the scroll in your hand and activating it with a Cast a Spell activity which costs the same number of actions as normal for casting the spell from a spell slot (typically 2).
All scroll thaumaturgy does it let you draw and hold scrolls with the same hand as you may be using an implement with, and allows you to use your class DC to set the scrolls DC rather than that of a particular spell (I'm actually not sure what that means exactly, or rather don't understand how it would be a benefit).
Elaborating on the second part, I'm unsure if it means you can activate any scroll without a check, as though it was a spell on your spell list and that the DC for stuff is your class DC (normally you use your spell attack roll and spell DC for your tradition but a thaumaturge doesn't have those).
Or it could mean that the DC to activate the scroll (like Trick Magic Item) is your class DC, which wouldn't be beneficial in most cases. And as I think on this more, I think it's got to be the first option I mentioned.
As mentioned above, while their is not a direct action economy benefit from scroll thaumaturgy, being able to hold the scroll and implement means not having to drop or put away your implement and being able to handle the scroll correctly. So there is some action economy benefit there. But you still cast the spell as the normal number of actions. And drawing a scroll still costs at least one action (depending on where it's stored it could be more).
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All scroll thaumaturgy does it let you draw and hold scrolls with the same hand as you may be using an implement with, and allows you to use your class DC to set the scrolls DC rather than that of a particular spell (I'm actually not sure what that means exactly, or rather don't understand how it would be a benefit).
Elaborating on the second part, I'm unsure if it means you can activate any scroll without a check, as though it was a spell on your spell list and that the DC for stuff is your class DC (normally you use your spell attack roll and spell DC for your tradition but a thaumaturge doesn't have those).
Or it could mean that the DC to activate the scroll (like Trick Magic Item) is your class DC, which wouldn't be beneficial in most cases. And as I think on this more, I think it's got to be the first option I mentioned.
It means the DC of the spell cast, so if a Thaumaturge casts Fireball, the Reflex DC would be based on their Class DC, rather than some other DC.
Trick Magic Item bases the DC on your level and highest mental stat, so a 9th level Fighter tricking a Scroll of Fireball who has +4 Cha would have a DC of 23. Meanwhile, a Thaumaturge of the same level with +4 Cha would have a DC of 27.
Thaumaturges with this feat don't need any additional checks nor actions to Cast a Spell off a scroll, but they still need to spend the appropriate number of actions to actually Cast the Spell.
Yeah, I had figured it out after thinking about how it would function. The second "option" I was thinking of just didn't make any sense.
One thing that's unclear though, is if you make a spell attack roll how does that function? You could probably just subtract 10, because that's how the math should normally work out if I understand things correctly.
Spell attack is d20 roll + ability modifier used for spellcasting + proficiency bonus (+ other bonuses + penalties)
Spell dc is 10 + ability modifier used for spellcasting + proficiency bonus (+ other bonuses + penalties)
Class DC is 10 plus their proficiency bonus for their class DC ) + the modifier for the class’s key ability score
So if thaumaturges are substituting class DC, they probably should also substitute the same basic thing for spell attack rolls, but subtract 10 and a d20 roll.
One thing that's unclear though, is if you make a spell attack roll how does that function? You could probably just subtract 10, because that's how the math should normally work out if I understand things correctly.
That is the only option that I can come up with for it too. Reverse the process of using a bonus to create a DC in order to go from the DC back to the bonus.
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One thing that's unclear though, is if you make a spell attack roll how does that function? You could probably just subtract 10, because that's how the math should normally work out if I understand things correctly.That is the only option that I can come up with for it too. Reverse the process of using a bonus to create a DC in order to go from the DC back to the bonus.
During the playtest, I think Mark Seifter clarified that that was going to be the intent in the final product but they still forgot to put it in print. I would go with that as a near official errata.
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So I had a player who took this feat. he started combat with a "spell scroll enlarge" in his hand, Claimed he could cast it with 1 action, then could take another scroll out with an interact action, then cast a "spell scroll enlarge" with 1 action again.
I would like to know if these is even possible because the spell is normally 2 actions.
The player is wrong (as others have already explained). But some more relevant points:
- It would be the job of the player to explain why exactly they would be able to do this so fast, and they didn't do that.
- Quite a few magic items are activated using a single action using the "Command" style of activation. That's what the player might be thinking of, mixing up one way of activating items and the typical speed for it, with activating items in general.
- Activating a scroll uses the Cast a Spell activity as it's way of activating the item (rules) and using the Cast a Spell activity takes as many actions as written in the spell description (rules). So in the case of Enlarge, that would be two actions to cast it.
Scroll Thaumaturgy allows the character to use Cast A Spell at all since it's not something non-casters can normally do. And the player was right that they could walk around holding a scroll to save the action of drawing it. But Scroll Thaumaturgy doesn't make casting scrolls any faster.
Yeah, given that thaumaturges can get free scrolls (as a 1st level feat) each day I would expect them to walk around holding an implement and a scroll in preparation for combat.
Free scrolls is an upgrade feat at level 6: Scroll Esoterica.
Sorry, you're right. Scroll thaumaturgy is the 1st level spell. The upgrade is higher level, but worth it I think.
It is definitely worth it.
And even at lower levels, I do have my Thaumaturge planning to be holding scrolls at the start of combat sometimes. Depends on what scrolls I have available.