| 13 people marked this as a favorite. |
Um, "bastard sword" is just the class for every trash lesbian with a sword I play.
| 12 people marked this as a favorite. |
Um, "bastard sword" is just the class for every trash lesbian with a sword I play.
Give. Women. Polearms.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Of course, if we give new things to some classes, we will have to take other things from them. So, what should the Swashbuckler lose ?
Needing to nerf another aspect requires there to be an imbalance. Classes that need a certain skill to function getting automatic increases in it is not an imbalance, it is common sense.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
A few other changes I'd like to see:
I mentioned this in a different discussion, but I'd like to see Barbarians lose Anathema. For me personally, imposing a code of conduct on a class known for violence and chaos is a bit jarring, I don't feel it fits.
Also, I'd like to see the Linguistics skill make a comeback. I love having characters that speak multiple languages, probably because I only speak one. Maybe I've missed something but I haven't found any way to learn new languages as you level up in 2E.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would genuinely love to exchange the free skill feats from Swash for free Skill increases if it has to be a tradeoff. Skill feats can have lots of impact or none at all. While a free skill increase nearly always ends up mattering and can really help with build flexibility.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
A few other changes I'd like to see:
I mentioned this in a different discussion, but I'd like to see Barbarians lose Anathema. For me personally, imposing a code of conduct on a class known for violence and chaos is a bit jarring, I don't feel it fits.
Also, I'd like to see the Linguistics skill make a comeback. I love having characters that speak multiple languages, probably because I only speak one. Maybe I've missed something but I haven't found any way to learn new languages as you level up in 2E.
Increase INT
Take the Multilingual skill feat. You can even take it several times.Those are just from the top of my head.
There are likely Ancestry feats that do this, as well as magic items.
Not to mention spells that help understand foreign languages.
I think the greatest barrier is access.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
A few other changes I'd like to see:
I mentioned this in a different discussion, but I'd like to see Barbarians lose Anathema. For me personally, imposing a code of conduct on a class known for violence and chaos is a bit jarring, I don't feel it fits.
Also, I'd like to see the Linguistics skill make a comeback. I love having characters that speak multiple languages, probably because I only speak one. Maybe I've missed something but I haven't found any way to learn new languages as you level up in 2E.
it is also worth mentioning that "society" as a skill covers what linguistics covered and more
|
I know it’s a hot-take, but I really feel that Sorcerers really need to lose that 4th spell slot.
Or at least having some bloodline / signature restrictions placed on it. That unrestricted 4th slot pushes them too much over other casters for my personal liking.
You aren't wrong, but bards should lose a slot too then.
How about just make wizards a 5 slot class, witches four slot, and call it a day lol.
I’m good with all of that.
I wouldn’t maybe call it a day, but tweaking the over-performers down and the under-performers up sounds fine to me.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
One thing that always struck me as odd with Swashbuckler is that their combat routine seems to push for doing lots of finishers. Which is at odds a bit with Panache giving bonuses for staying in it.
In particular, it seems really odd that Panache gives a +1 bonus to skill checks that can give you Panache... but only while you already have it! It's a bonus that's almost designed to never be used it feels like, in part because once you can get Panache reliably you want to keep spending it for damage.
The idea of the swashbuckler is that that's only one build/strategy. Like, sure, you can try to pump out finishers as fast as you can for damage... or you can lean into the panache side of things, pick up feats like Derring-do and Agile Maneuvers, and turn a gymnast into one of the best tripper/grapplers in the game... who can also fire off finishers every once in a while, when the timing is right.
Derring-Do and One For All are both incredibly powerful, and some weaker "entry level" support abilities would complement them well.
Well, I hear that Panache gives you a +1 bonus to pertinent skill checks even at level 1... and Agile Maneuvers comes at level 6. Past that, Wrestler archetype is a thing.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
The idea of the swashbuckler is that that's only one build/strategy. Like, sure, you can try to pump out finishers as fast as you can for damage... or you can lean into the panache side of things, pick up feats like Derring-do and Agile Maneuvers, and turn a gymnast into one of the best tripper/grapplers in the game... who can also fire off finishers every once in a while, when the timing is right.
You say 'feats like' but... it's really that specific build. It's not like battledancers are going to be kicking ass sitting on panache all fight, or braggarts after you intimidate the boss once and are then done.
...IMO kind of highlights the core issue with the Swashbuckler. When people talk about builds, it's mostly about a couple specific feat paths that are exciting and compelling, Swashbucklers outside those zones comparatively struggle a lot and end up really underperforming compared to their more correctly built peers.
| 13 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think Swashbuckler suffers from two main issues:
One of them is their scaling. Not that they scale poorly — quite the opposite, actually. Their early game is kinda awful, with everything working against you. Success rates on skills are quite low, which means getting Panache is a huge struggle. You don't get Dex to damage and can't really put higher than a 12 in Str if you're not a Gymnast, which doesn't matter that much later on, but is a big deal at low levels. And you also haven't unlocked feats that make staying and Panache better (Derring-Do), nor feats that make your finishers stronger and more competitive with other classes just... basic Striking (Bleeding Finisher, Perfect Finisher). As you level, especially at around level 8 to 10, all these issues become moot, but while a character having to start this weak and getting strong later is okay in a MOBA, where a game lasts 40 minutes, it's not so much in a TTRPG, where a campaign can last 2 years.
The second issue is the balance between staying in vs spending Panache. The passive damage bonus from Panache is, let's face it, pitiful (doesn't even compensate for your weaker weapons and usual lack of Strength), and as people previously said, the Speed and skill bonuses tend to apply when you don't need them anymore. I know a lot of people say "spamming finishers is bad, stop doing it", but seriously, a Swashbuckler that doesn't spam Bleeding Finishers and whatnot, outside of specific builds like Derring-Do Grappler, is just a slightly tankier but overall much worse Rogue.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
One of them is their scaling. Not that they scale poorly — quite the opposite, actually.
Mostly. I do think parts of their kit scale awkwardly. The stay-in-panache damage notably scales pretty badly into higher levels, while not even being that incomparable to other damage options at level 1 (+2 isn't that far behind sneak attack and similar to things like overdrive or antithesis at that level).
Granted, that gets kind of eclipsed by the 'finesse user at level 1' problem where you're rolling 1d6+1 and the person next to you is rolling 1d12+4.
Finisher damage scales better, but if you're not using one of the really good finishers I still don't think it scales quite enough. For a class that's often landing only one big alpha strike per turn, the damage advantages it has rapidly gets swallowed up by other modifiers, to the point where its "one big hit" often ends up not being all that much bigger than what other people are doing as regular attacks.
Not the end of the world, but it's noticeable if you aren't using one of the optimal finishers that even late game the swashbuckler has some issues keeping up the risk/reward.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
For Swashbuckler, I see 2 possible buffs (but certainly not both of them simultaneously):
- Grant Panache on a failed check. Panache building is painful because it's random. Granting Panache even if you fail the check would remove the clunkyness of the class. And after all, you are panachey for even trying to do it with panache.
- Remove MAP on Finishers, so they finally earn their name. It would remove the whole nonsense of making a single attack per round because your last attack needs to have no MAP as it's also the most damaging one. The class would be much more explosive: High risk high gain, which is quite expected from a Swashbuckler.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
removing map from finishers would be extremely too strong.
2 full map attacks, the second one with a very big damage boost would be too strong.
Here's a comparison between a Greatsword Fighter making 2 attacks and a Swashbuckler (14 Str) making a Precise Strike attack and a Confident Finisher with no MAP. The Fighter still wins. And the Swashbuckler will need to pay actions to rebuild their Panache afterwards. So it's very far from "too strong", it's actually quite balanced.
try comparing to a one handed weapon martial onstead of a two handed one, because there is a big amount of value into having an empty hand.
Ok, you want a more precise model, here it is.
This a Rapier Swash with 12 Str against a Pick Fighter and a Rapier Thief Rogue (with Sneak Attack). But now I've counted Panache generation (under Dexterity).
It's definitely not far too strong. But I agree it's maybe slightly too strong as Panache generation often comes with an effect. Removing a dice from the Finisher should be enough to balance it better.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
In turns you don't have to move (or you have haste) you can model your build to easily do Full, -5,Full+finisher
No, you can't, you have to generate Panache. And it's better to do 2 Full and 2 Finishers (and consuming your Panache as soon as you get it) than Full, -5 and 2 Finishers by keeping your Panache to replace a -10 attack on next round. So my damage sequence is the best you can get.
Now, if you are Hasted, I agree that you can do all of that. But it's not easy like you state, you need a specific buff and as such someone else to spend actions to allow you to do that.
Also, I'm comparing the Swashbuckler to a free hand Fighter. So the advantage you get when generating Panache are equating the advantages a free hand Fighter gets by using its special attacks (I even think the Fighter gets more advantages than the Swash). Once again, it's equal.
And the Swashbuckler still deals less damage, and less damage on reactions (as you forget this important source of damage for both the Swash and the Fighter).
You also completely put aside how it can sometimes be hard to generate Panache (hello flyer) when the Fighter is never disabled by the situation.
So the Fighter is still king of damage, the Swash can compete only in optimal situations. I think it's fine.
Now, as the Fighter is considered the best martial, I speak of removing one die to the Swash so the Swash ends up strictly worse than the Fighter and as such doesn't affect balance.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Getting a +10 to attack whenever you get hasted is absurd.
There's no justification for it.
Haste transfigures the melee Magus and allows it to massively outdamage a Fighter. Still, I don't see people screaming that melee Magus is too strong because once Hasted it is crazy strong. So there is a precedent to that. And the Magus can cast Haste unlike the Swash who needs to get it from somewhere else.
Free hand fighter has 0 advance compared to freehand swash as well. So there goes that nonargument as well.
Free hand Fighter gives Flat-Footed condition or Grabbed condition on hit. That's definitely better than the Panache generation skill actions the Swashbuckler can use. So the free hand Fighter is definitely above the Swash in terms of utility on top of being slightly above in terms of damage.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
Personally, I'd see a swashbuckler that got panache-on-fail as being a really nasty break with the fiction of the class. The whole point of panache is that you're doing things in awesome ways, and then riding that awesome, and then burning it off at specific moments to be more awesome.
Failure is not awesome.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You are talking about specific feats, that more can grab.
I'm talking about specific low level Fighter feats that complement the free hand playstyle. If you don't take these feats then the proper comparison would be with a Greatsword Fighter who outdamages the Swashbuckler but loses a bit of versatility.
And magus with haste doesn't get +10.
At most, assuming infinite amounts of true strikes, he gets +5.
It still outdamages the hasted Swashbuckler with no MAP on Finishers. So it looks like an important point to make when you are speaking of breaking the system.
Plus, your suggestion does absolutely nothing for the issues of swash.
The fact that the class is weak? Yes, it solves that. The fact that Finishers have a name that doesn't suit the way they are used? It solves that. The fact that the class doesn't embody the high risk high gain philosophy it should have? It solves that. It seems to solve a lot of the swash issues to me.
The class only needs 1 thing, more reliable panache generation, especially vs bosses.
I really think reliability shouldn't be a goal for the Swashbuckler class. Quite the opposite, if you want my opinion.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you were going to make finishers MAPless, I think it would be important to ensure that that was a feature that was not available to the archetype swashbuckler. Otherwise, the dip in gets a bit too much payoff from, say, stumbling stance monks (who, with a couple of feats, can bluff and then attack twice as a single action, and who have a primary attack that works just fine with finishers).
| 10 people marked this as a favorite. |
While I agree that MAPless finishers would be an extreme change, it's also kind of telling to look at SuperBidi's math and notice that even such a dramatic change barely pushes the needle into problematic territory, even on ideal turns.
It says a lot about where we're starting from.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think people put way too much emphasis on the -5 MAP attack. It's generally not that great if you're not a fighter (or a monk who doesn't spend an action on it).
Being able to do something else useful instead is generally a bonus. It's just that "failing at tumble checks because I'm fighting an APL+3 enemy" is not useful.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
While I agree that MAPless finishers would be an extreme change, it's also kind of telling to look at SuperBidi's math and notice that even such a dramatic change barely pushes the needle into problematic territory, even on ideal turns.
It says a lot about where we're starting from.
But that's only when you account using them as second attack.
When you make them 3rd attacks the math breaks out the gazoo.
---
For the math to work out it would need to be "finishers don't advance map" rather than them being unaffected, since the only thing that his math is based upon is a single increase in MAP which is effectively the same as an attack not advancing MAP
Two issues with that, A. they can't swing 3 times unless they got panache last round, which makes them a 2 cycle attack class like Magus, who are still better at burst; B. Finishers lock you out of further Strikes, so them not advancing MAP is moot since you can't swing afterwards, unless you're saying to remove that little quirk in order to make them more functional, which sounds fine to me but seems like a core misunderstanding of your argument's starting point.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Personally, I am starting to feel like chasing damage is the wrong way to buff the Swashbuckler. With the class's flavor, they shouldn't be a replacement for a barbarian but a bard. The class could lean further into debuffs, harrying enemies and distracting them with taunts, bleed, and so on. Fighting a Swashbuckler should be annoying. Make Riposte trigger when an enemy strikes an ally. Dart in, draw aggro, then make the enemy chase you down.
Also, I think the risk/reward thing is important to for the class, but it maybe is in the wrong place. Failing a panache action and nothing happening doesn't actually feel high risk, it just feels kind of lame. I think removing the need to generate panache and instead giving finishers punishing failure and critical failure conditions might be more interesting. Or if panache generation stays a thing, you could let it happen on a failure. You still spent the action and didn't get the action's core benefit, like Demoralizing. Make the finisher the risky thing that overextends you.
A more simple graph of even 2 attacks of:
Swash with rapier, vs double slice rogue, vs pick fighter making two strikes
https://imgur.io/uQP7kqS?r
It already shows how the MAPless attack outscales all the rest.
In a 3 attack routine it would be much much worse.
Your graphs are wrong, the Rogue has no reason to be under the Swashbuckler in damage as it does more damage per attack and has no MAP, too. I think your target is not Flat Footed so it doesn't cout Sneak Attack.
As for your Fighter, add a secondary Light Pick and go for Double Slice if you want to see real damage.Also, it's true that instead of no MAP you can reduce MAP by 5 for Finishers, which doesn't change anything in nominal situation but it doesn't make Haste stronger than it should be.
While I agree that MAPless finishers would be an extreme change, it's also kind of telling to look at SuperBidi's math and notice that even such a dramatic change barely pushes the needle into problematic territory, even on ideal turns.
It says a lot about where we're starting from.
I've compared with current Swashbuckler, and it gives exactly 40% extra damage, which is both enormous and not that extreme. Current Swashbuckler is definitely subpar, but it's not completely useless.
Personally, I am starting to feel like chasing damage is the wrong way to buff the Swashbuckler.
As of now, it's very hard to make a debuffer out of the Swashbuckler as it has not much to support this playstyle. So I don't think this will happen.
Also, it's true that instead of no MAP you can reduce MAP by 5 for Finishers, which doesn't change anything in nominal situation but it doesn't make Haste stronger than it should be.
Better make that "reduce by one notch" rather than "reduce by 5". Agile weapons and Combination Finisher are things.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Personally, I am starting to feel like chasing damage is the wrong way to buff the Swashbuckler.As of now, it's very hard to make a debuffer out of the Swashbuckler as it has not much to support this playstyle. So I don't think this will happen.
I mean, we haven't been given indication that ANY changes are planned for the Swashbuckler, and adding debuff options doesn't feel any more out there than removing MAP.
Also, there's rather a lot of debuff focused Swashbuckler content. It wouldn't be that hard to buff what it is already there.
Literally every style action
Disarming flair
Focused Fascination
Goading Feint
You're Next
Antagonize
Tumble Behind
Unbalancing Finisher
Vexing Tumble
Bleeding Finisher
Stunning Finisher
Derring Do (helps with literally every style action)
Targeting Finisher
Rather a lot there already, really. And as I look through the class feats I'm realizing that there are a lot of really cool options competing with each other. If some of these became class features instead we might be cooking.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Literally every style action
Disarming flair
Focused Fascination
Goading Feint
You're Next
Antagonize
Tumble Behind
Unbalancing Finisher
Vexing Tumble
Bleeding Finisher
Stunning Finisher
Derring Do (helps with literally every style action)
Targeting FinisherRather a lot there already, really. And as I look through the class feats I'm realizing that there are a lot of really cool options competing with each other. If some of these became class features instead we might be cooking.
Bleeding Finisher, Derring Do and Vexing Tumble are no debuffs. Disarming Flair, Goading Feint, Antagonize and Focused Fascination are upgrading your Panache generating actions: There's no point in taking any of them but the one improving your own Style. So they are really a single feat.
I don't consider the Swashbuckler to be much of a debuffer outside their Panache generating actions (which are skill actions and as such available to everyone).| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For Swashbuckler, I see 2 possible buffs (but certainly not both of them simultaneously):
- Grant Panache on a failed check. Panache building is painful because it's random. Granting Panache even if you fail the check would remove the clunkyness of the class. And after all, you are panachey for even trying to do it with panache.
- Remove MAP on Finishers, so they finally earn their name. It would remove the whole nonsense of making a single attack per round because your last attack needs to have no MAP as it's also the most damaging one. The class would be much more explosive: High risk high gain, which is quite expected from a Swashbuckler.
I'm not sure if granting Panache on a failure would be beneficial to the class' identity, since they are meant to be "succeed or don't," and not a "fail forward" type of class. I would probably rather treat Panache as a Stance effect, where you enter it as an action, and then when you perform a Finisher, you exit the Stance of having Panache, not unlike, say, the Marshal archetype (where you perform a Skill check based on your Style for a standard DC equal to your level, similar to Bards).