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The word "kill" is defined as "to cause the death of (a living thing)," and I don't know of a rule in Pathfinder 2e that redefines this. Furthermore, the death knell spell, the Balor's Lifedrinker action, and other game features have specific effects that depend on successfully killing the target, so I'd like to know how strict the "kill" requirement is.
If the target of death knell fails it's save and dies, then death knell obviously killed the target, granting the caster temporary Hit Points and bonus for 10 minutes. If the target is dying 3 and succeeds, the become dying 4 and die, so I'd say again that death knell killed the target. Suppose, however, that the target is dying 2, succeeds the save becoming dying 3, then fails a recovery check and becomes dying 4. The death knell spell is partly responsible for the target's death, but is it correct to say that the spell killed it, granting the benefits to the caster at the time of the target's death? Likewise, if a Balor reduces a creature (that has a high enough level) to zero Hit Points with a non-death attack or other effect and then the creature reaches dying 4 due to some bad recovery checks, does the Balor satisfy the trigger for Lifedrinker?
Basically, for a given creature or effect to count as having killed something, does it need to be an immediate kill, or does it just need to be the case that the target would have survived if not for the creature or effect in question?
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Most creatures die upon hitting 0 hit points:The word "kill" is defined as "to cause the death of (a living thing)," and I don't know of a rule in Pathfinder 2e that redefines this. Furthermore, the death knell spell, the Balor's Lifedrinker action, and other game features have specific effects that depend on successfully killing the target, so I'd like to know how strict the "kill" requirement is.
If the target of death knell fails it's save and dies, then death knell obviously killed the target, granting the caster temporary Hit Points and bonus for 10 minutes. If the target is dying 3 and succeeds, the become dying 4 and die, so I'd say again that death knell killed the target. Suppose, however, that the target is dying 2, succeeds the save becoming dying 3, then fails a recovery check and becomes dying 4. The death knell spell is partly responsible for the target's death, but is it correct to say that the spell killed it, granting the benefits to the caster at the time of the target's death? Likewise, if a Balor reduces a creature (that has a high enough level) to zero Hit Points with a non-death attack or other effect and then the creature reaches dying 4 due to some bad recovery checks, does the Balor satisfy the trigger for Lifedrinker?
Basically, for a given creature or effect to count as having killed something, does it need to be an immediate kill, or does it just need to be the case that the target would have survived if not for the creature or effect in question?
Core Rulebook pg. 459 4.0Source
Creatures cannot be reduced to fewer than 0 Hit Points. When most creatures reach 0 Hit Points, they die and are removed from play unless the attack was nonlethal, in which case they are instead knocked out for a significant amount of time (usually 1 minute or more). When undead and construct creatures reach 0 Hit Points, they are destroyed.
Player characters, their companions, and other significant characters and creatures don’t automatically die when they reach 0 Hit Points. Instead, they are knocked out and are at risk of death. At the GM’s discretion, villains, powerful monsters, special NPCs, and enemies with special abilities that are likely to bring them back to the fight (like ferocity, regeneration, or healing magic) can use these rules as well.
As a player character, when you are reduced to 0 Hit Points, you’re knocked out with the following effects:
You immediately move your initiative position to directly before the turn in which you were reduced to 0 HP.
You gain the dying 1 condition. If the effect that knocked you out was a critical success from the attacker or the result of your critical failure, you gain the dying 2 condition instead. If you have the wounded condition, increase your dying value by an amount equal to your wounded value. If the damage was dealt by a nonlethal attack or nonlethal effect, you don’t gain the dying condition; you are instead unconscious with 0 Hit Points.
The 'dying' rules are actually a 'plot armor' exception to the general rule...
...Most creatures die upon hitting 0 hit points:The word "kill" is defined as "to cause the death of (a living thing)," and I don't know of a rule in Pathfinder 2e that redefines this. Furthermore, the death knell spell, the Balor's Lifedrinker action, and other game features have specific effects that depend on successfully killing the target, so I'd like to know how strict the "kill" requirement is.
If the target of death knell fails it's save and dies, then death knell obviously killed the target, granting the caster temporary Hit Points and bonus for 10 minutes. If the target is dying 3 and succeeds, the become dying 4 and die, so I'd say again that death knell killed the target. Suppose, however, that the target is dying 2, succeeds the save becoming dying 3, then fails a recovery check and becomes dying 4. The death knell spell is partly responsible for the target's death, but is it correct to say that the spell killed it, granting the benefits to the caster at the time of the target's death? Likewise, if a Balor reduces a creature (that has a high enough level) to zero Hit Points with a non-death attack or other effect and then the creature reaches dying 4 due to some bad recovery checks, does the Balor satisfy the trigger for Lifedrinker?
Basically, for a given creature or effect to count as having killed something, does it need to be an immediate kill, or does it just need to be the case that the target would have survived if not for the creature or effect in question?
Core Rulebook pg. 459 4.0Source
Creatures cannot be reduced to fewer than 0 Hit Points. When most creatures reach 0 Hit Points, they die and are removed from play unless the attack was
Yes, I know that most creatures just die at 0 Hit Points. But the examples I used regard targets that do use the dying rules. Death Knell can technically be used against regular monsters with 0 Hit Points who aren't dying, but the Success clause makes it clear that it's intended to be used against creatures that use the dying rules. And the Balor's Lifedrinker is primarily there to be used against player characters, who always use the dying rules.
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While it is not spelled out, succeeding on your save against death knell while while not actually dying should probably make you dying 1.
In any case, you'd only get the buff from Death Knell if your target fails the save or makes the save but the 'dying +1' still kills him/her directly by taking him/her to Dying 4 or 5.
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I think Death Knell is a weird legacy spell to still have in PF2. It doesn't do anything against the 99% of NPCs that don't use the extended Dying rules, so why would a PC prepare them? And for NPCs, the GM has to make the NPC metagame to know that it can be used with actual effect on a PC.
It would make more sense as a spell if it had some built in effect if used on someone who'd dropped to 0HP in the last round or two, including NPCs that get directly declared dead.
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I think Death Knell is a weird legacy spell to still have in PF2. It doesn't do anything against the 99% of NPCs that don't use the extended Dying rules, so why would a PC prepare them?
It’s extra work, but at my table we track NPC and Monster Dying condition fairly often, though not universally. My players don’t necessarily want to slaughter every opponent they face, and occasionally it’s a matter of wanting someone to interrogate after the combat. PCs fairly regularly hit dying opponents with Stabilize or First Aid.
And for NPCs, the GM has to make the NPC metagame to know that it can be used with actual effect on a PC.
I tend to think that from the NPCs’ perspective, even if you’re running NPCs-immediately-die-at- 0hp, the universal perception is that folks don’t necessarily drop dead as soon as they’re knocked out. Plus, Death Knell is likely to show up on an NPC who has access to healing magic, which to my mind means Dying condition should probably be tracked, since that same NPC may be able to bring allies back from Dying.
All that said, though, especially in the asymmetrical universe of Pathfinder 2E, I’m okay with some spells that are oriented more toward enemies than PCs. It’s certainly more economical to stick Death Knell in a stat block than to have to set it forth as a special ability in each case.
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As a GM, any NPC that is adventuring with the PCs as an ally will get to roll for dying. All the rest just die at 0 hp. If the party wanted to interrogate the enemy, they can always attempt to before combat or use nonlethal attacks when dropping opponents to 0 hp. I tend to run far too many creatures in a combat to have to account for dying values as well.
Same for me. This may delay the rounds a bit but I usually don't kill intelligent creatures that are able to communicate because sometimes the players may want to try take some information from they and I don't want to metagame rolling only fro the creature that have useful info or not only preventing important NPCs from die. The only exception I made are from creatures that was summoned by spells or rituals, they usually are a magical "construct" or back to their planes when killed.
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It doesn't do anything against the 99% of NPCs that don't use the extended Dying rules, so why would a PC prepare them? And for NPCs, the GM has to make the NPC metagame to know that it can be used with actual effect on a PC.
The printed rules text:
At the GM’s discretion, villains, powerful monsters, special NPCs, and enemies with special abilities that are likely to bring them back to the fight (like ferocity, regeneration, or healing magic) can use these rules as well.
The way that I interpret this is that all creatures actually do use the Dying condition, but for NPCs 99% of the time the Dying condition is not useful and can just be handwaved away.
But there are cases where it is needed and useful. Special NPCs such as allies in the party, monsters with special abilities, and any enemies of characters that can cast Death Knell.
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It's not as useless as it initially appears. Death Knell can be used to kill creatures with Regeneration after all.
And it's not just dying creatures this spell works against. The only requirement is that the target is a living creature with 0 Hit Points. That means even for NPCs that don't use the dying rules, an ally can knock an enemy out with a nonlethal attack, and you can follow up with Death Knell for the temporary Hit Points and +1 to attack/damage rolls. And the buff lasts well past the duration of the spell, so you can even take it into the next combat. You could maybe even knock an enemy out during the fight, Treat Wounds on everyone to get back into fighting gear, and then sacrifice the [hopefully still unconscious] enemy to Death Knell for the buff.