Help with very complex concept / build (Gunslinger + Summoner Dual Class allowed)

[Trixleby]

I will be joining a campaign 1-11 in the Abomination Vaults and I had a character idea I've been drumming around with that I've played in a vanilla RAW PFS game which works alright, which is a Gnome (Umbral) Arcane Summoner with a (Red) Dragon Eidolon.

The basic idea of the character is that she has been Isekai'd into Golarion from the Monster Hunter Stories (2) world and therefore she is a Monster Hunter (or technically rider) with a "light bowgun" and her Eidolon is her Rathalos. The sigil all Summoners get is her rider's bracelet that allows the connection between the two and allows her to ride him (Hence they are Monster Riders).

I was reskinning "Phase Bolt" as shooting a "bowgun" which doesn't technically exist.

Since this is allowing: Ancestral Paragon, Free Archetype, AND Dual-Class I am trying to figure out how to build a Way of the Spellshot Gunslinger with a Repeating Crossbow, haven't decided on FA yet, and already covered the Summoner bit.

I guess it would essentially be 2 martials with 1 being a wave caster for buff spells? Not sure what spells? Does haste even work on Summoner? I figure most combats don't really go past 5 rounds so a 5 round repeating magazine skirts the reload issue altogether? IDK

Help/advice appreciated

[SuperBidi]

You share your MAP with your Eidolon, so Summoner/martial is in general non functional, especially considering that you can't use Tandem Strike with a ranged weapon.
I don't think this dual class combo can work.

[HumbleGamer]

I second SuperBidi.

Consider also that one advantage of the summoner is that it's a double class in terms of stats.

The eidolon will always be equal ( even better, if by lvl 17 the other characters don't get their apex item ASAP ) to a combatant class, while the Summoner will be able to start with 18 Charisma, making it equal to a pure spellcaster for more than half the time.

An eidolon can deliver 2 strikes, while the summoner can cast spells, granting them pretty good dps.

Repeating crossbow also doesn't seem the best deal for a gunslinger, because it doesn't allow them to make a proper use of their reload feature, as well as 3 actions to full reload it ( you are going to waste whole turn or, eventually, 3 consecutive actions split between turns ).

Even considering a fight would allow you to just 1 magazine ( without the need to recharge your crossbow ).

The good thing is that it's going to be underpowered even compared to a well rounded normal class, so being a doubleclass with that build won't affect the game difficulty at all.

[Trixleby]

SuperBidi wrote:

You share your MAP with your Eidolon, so Summoner/martial is in general non functional, especially considering that you can't use Tandem Strike with a ranged weapon.

I don't think this dual class combo can work.

But don’t all martials share map with themselves if they attack more than once per turn?

[HumbleGamer]

Trixleby wrote:

SuperBidi wrote:

You share your MAP with your Eidolon, so Summoner/martial is in general non functional, especially considering that you can't use Tandem Strike with a ranged weapon.

I don't think this dual class combo can work.

But don’t all martials share map with themselves if they attack more than once per turn?

Yes, but reading your first post

Quote:

I guess it would essentially be 2 martials with 1 being a wave caster for buff spells?

seemed like it was a martial x2, while int's just 1 martial ( given the fact eidolon and gunslinger would share the same MAP ).

[Trixleby]

HumbleGamer wrote:

Trixleby wrote:

SuperBidi wrote:

You share your MAP with your Eidolon, so Summoner/martial is in general non functional, especially considering that you can't use Tandem Strike with a ranged weapon.

I don't think this dual class combo can work.

But don’t all martials share map with themselves if they attack more than once per turn?

Yes, but reading your first post

Quote:

I guess it would essentially be 2 martials with 1 being a wave caster for buff spells?

seemed like it was a martial x2, while int's just 1 martial ( given the fact eidolon and gunslinger would share the same MAP ).

I guess my question is what is the difference between say, a Greatsword Fighter or Greataxe Barbarian attacking twice at regular MAP and my dual class gunslinger/summoner shooting with a crossbow and doing an eidolon attack?

[HumbleGamer]

Attacking twice with a single character or making both eidolon and gunslinger strike once would be the same in terms of MAP.

The eidolon is stuck with 1d8 damage ( 1d6 if finesse ) die, so they might eventually fall behind ( reason there's "boost eidolon" ).

A gunslinger doesn't apply STR to their damage ( unless some propulsive rifle/xbow I am not aware of ).

I think a Barbarian or Fighter would deal more damage, but what I think you should consider is another dual class setup.

For example, a Fighter/Barbarian dual class would probably destroy your eidolo/gunslinger damage by a lot.

Same goes with a fighter/Alchemist dual class ( mutagenist ) I guess.

Consider also actions:

- 1 action to boost your eidolon each round ( unless extend boost )
- 1 action, eventually, to stride ( you can shot from the distance, but your eidolon can't )
- eidolon abilities ( from 1 to 2 actions. Like weighty impact ) or summoner spells.

I'd probably try to simulate some hypothetical rounds, in terms of action management, just to see whether it's fluid or not.

[Captain Morgan]

Why not just go for a riding wyvern animal companion? Do the Monster Hunters have spiritual connections a la the summoner with the Rathalos?

[Trixleby]

Captain Morgan wrote:

Why not just go for a riding wyvern animal companion? Do the Monster Hunters have spiritual connections a la the summoner with the Rathalos?

From playing the games (both Monster Hunter Stories 1 and 2) it seems to be yes. Basically there’s a certain age you reach and you have to pass certain trials to get a monster egg, then spiritually attune/connect with the monster inside. Once it hatches, if it acknowledges you, it’s considered a special partnership and your abilities are powered by “kinship” which is stored in a special stone the symbolizes your eternal bond with your monster.

A Kinship Stone is a special stone forged from a Kinship Ore. It is Rider's symbol and bond forger. With this stone, a rider is able to forge a bond with their Monstie. By foraging this bond, the rider and Monstie are close to each other, both mentally and emotionally. It has the mysterious ability to purify the Black Blight.

The Rite of Kinship is a special ceremony that students have to go through in order to become true riders.

To become true riders, they must use their Kinship Stone to hatch a single egg in order to gain their first Monstie. After hatching an egg, the students must purify the stone by cleansing it in a waterfall. By cleansing the stone, students are able to unlock the hidden power found within the Kinship Stone. If they aren't able to purify the Kinship Stone, then they won't be considered true riders.

[Trixleby]

My plan was to go a martial class to party up with the “monstie” (eidolon) because every character in Monster Hunter and all spin off series is essentially a martial character.

In Monster Hunter Stories 1 the weapons were: Greatsword, Hammer, Sword and Shield and Hunting Horn which is a giant hammer like horn that plays music and inspires Allie’s like a bard.

In stories 2 they added: the Gunlance, the Longsword and the Bow.

In the mainstay game in addition to all the weapons above there’s the Dual Blades, the Switch Axe (changes from Greatsword to Greataxe and can be elementally charged), the Charge Blade which is a sword and shield that changes into a Greataxe and a few in between forms, the Insect Glaive which is a glaive that empowers the user via an insect (called a kinsect) that collects essence from monsters, and the Light and Heavy Bowgun. They’re like a mixture of crossbow and gun really, who specialize in different ammo types.

In this way I figured a martial fighting in tandem would be fine. I’m not really going for “max damage” just a character that actually works even if it’s only “fine” damage. I’m used to using shortswords and Shortbow and dex characters so doing 1-2d6 isn’t a problem for me.

[Dorian 'Grey']

Summoner/Thaumaturge build would fit your Monster Huner concept, I believe.

[Squiggit]

The tandem strike build is the ideal way to make a summoner/martial dual class works, but it specifies melee strikes because Paizo doesn't want you to have fun.

If you recalibrate toward a melee build it could work a little bit better. Otherwise ask your GM if they could houserule tandem strike to work with ranged weapons because it's still a bad feat even if you do.

Ranged + eidolon can work in the strictest sense (strike-shoot as an act together then 2 actions for whatever, probably a spell or a cantrip or reloading a gun + movement), but you have very little synergy between your class features and are mostly going to be fighting against yourself to pull it off.

TBH I think your original idea of reflavoring spells as weaponry creates a more functional character.

[Trixleby]

Squiggit wrote:

The tandem strike build is the ideal way to make a summoner/martial dual class works, but it specifies melee strikes because Paizo doesn't want you to have fun.

If you recalibrate toward a melee build it could work a little bit better. Otherwise ask your GM if they could houserule tandem strike to work with ranged weapons because it's still a bad feat even if you do.

Ranged + eidolon can work in the strictest sense (strike-shoot as an act together then 2 actions for whatever, probably a spell or a cantrip or reloading a gun + movement), but you have very little synergy between your class features and are mostly going to be fighting against yourself to pull it off.

TBH I think your original idea of reflavoring spells as weaponry creates a more functional character.

I will admit part of my decision to try to go martial is due to my choice of miniature. https://www.myminifactory.com/object/3d-print-monster-hunters-bundle-232948

It’s the small one with a gun, because finding good gnome minis is hard for some reason. However were I to go full spellcaster I’m not sure which spells to go, or what second class to take. Maybe Sorcerer since it’s a Cha caster… maybe run it as a blaster? Or maybe a Starlit Span magus?

[HumbleGamer]

Given the fact the DM is allowing dual classes ( and eventually, even fa?), and, because so the balance is already gone, why not to ask them to use your gun for tandem strike?

It would require the eidolon in melee with the enemy, so it won't change a thing... or, to better say it...

- enemies will be able to perform AoO on you, because you used a ranged attack.
- your damage will be lower compared to a STR based build.
- you might end up wasting actions reloading your weapon ( if encounters are going to last more than 5 rounds).

This is proof you are going to be penalized a lot, and that you are not trying to exploit the game mechanics to get an advantage ( but rather trying to add some flavor stuff to your character).

I'd go with this.