Choose an implement from the options to which you have access. You begin play with a mundane item of that type, and you gain the initiate benefit for that implement. While an implement is useful to you, it typically has no value if sold.
"Begin play with" means I get it for free right? If my implement is an exquisite sword cane, for example, I don't have to pay 90gp for it?
I won't be able to sell it, I understand, but there's still value in starting with gear that would normally be inaccessible.
Could I choose full plate as my regalia at 1st-level and get that for free?
Is it the same for future implements; are my second and third implements also given for free? Must they too be mundane? Or can I suddenly have a "worthless" 1,850gp ghost lantern from nowhere for my lantern implement?
If I later make an existing magical object an implement, does it forever after lose its monetary value? If it is only valueless so long as it remains an implement, could I sell the full plate and exquisite sword cane at value once I've replaced them with new implements?
Mundane refers to anything that is not magical. It's been that way since before Pathfinder's inception.
All of my examples, save the ghost lantern, are mundane.
In any case, the initial price or value never enters into it since 1) it is never directly addressed save to 2) make it impossible to profit from resale.
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Personally I would not allow weapon implements for free. The Thaumaturge with Weapon Implement does still have to buy their weapon just like everyone else.
For the other implement types - the ones that have no actual practical purpose - they are free. And they are also valueless to be sold.
Now, that isn't quite what the rules say though. I can see the argument that a Thaumaturge with Weapon Implement would indeed get a non-magical weapon for free to begin with. However, it would still be valueless when the character tries to sell it.
It is pretty clear that other than the Weapon Implement, the implements don't have any purpose other than what the implement abilities actually give them. So no, you can't choose your armor as a Regalia Implement. You can't use a highly polished shield as a Mirror Implement. Implements are supposed to be mundane (I read that word in this context as meaning 'having no game mechanics benefits') items. Not adventuring equipment that is serving dual purpose because you are trying to cheese a technicality of vague English language in order to get a benefit that wasn't intended.
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The full plate regalia is a bigger issue than just "can it be free?". "My suit of armor that I wear, hands free" isn't even a legit item to define as "my hand-held authority symbol that is my Regalia implement that must be held to function". It doesn't meet the "item of the same general type" requirement to make into your new implement after buying it, either.
The Exquisite Sword Cane is a known acknowledged design issue, and this is hardly the only place it makes things weird if you treat it as "a common item that actually exists" instead of "the early AP mistake that it is, which was never supposed to be common, instead of a specific item in that adventure".
Mechanically I don't find the Exquisite Sword Cane to be all that out of bounds on its power. Just the price.
An Exquisite Sword Cane and Sheath is pretty comparable to a regular Sword Cane and Main-gauche. The only trait it is missing is Twin, and the Main-gauche does piercing damage instead of bludgeoning.
Choose an implement from the options to which you have access. You begin play with a mundane item of that type, and you gain the initiate benefit for that implement. While an implement is useful to you, it typically has no value if sold."Begin play with" means I get it for free right? If my implement is an exquisite sword cane, for example, I don't have to pay 90gp for it?
I won't be able to sell it, I understand, but there's still value in starting with gear that would normally be inaccessible.
Could I choose full plate as my regalia at 1st-level and get that for free?
Is it the same for future implements; are my second and third implements also given for free? Must they too be mundane? Or can I suddenly have a "worthless" 1,850gp ghost lantern from nowhere for my lantern implement?
If I later make an existing magical object an implement, does it forever after lose its monetary value? If it is only valueless so long as it remains an implement, could I sell the full plate and exquisite sword cane at value once I've replaced them with new implements?
You're joking, right? You could at least pose a serious question.
Okay, let's go ahead and evaluate the sentence. It says you "begin play with a mundane item of that type." It also says it has no value when sold, and that it has to be an option to which you have access; while I feel like this is for Uncommon or other rarity-based Implements, it could also be referring to actual item implements, such as Uncommon weaponry.
Of course, this already ruins any opportunities to try and cheese for future implements, since once you begin playing the character, you don't begin playing the character again, as it would be considered a continuation of the previous play.
Now, mundane item, while not given a definition in the book, would fall unto GM FIAT, and the universal ruling I've seen is that it has to be a Level 0 or Level 1 common item. Items that are uncommon or rarer, or items that are Level 2 or higher, aren't particularly mundane (that is, basic or available to everyone), because not everyone can acquire it in a given shop. Just as well, characters don't "begin play" with items like that, so even from a balance perspective, it makes no sense to provide that as a boost.
The Exquisite Sword Cane is an AP-Specific item that, even if it was boiled down to its base statistics (and ignoring the fact that its origins are from a Unique weapon), is a Level 4 item. Technically not Uncommon, but given that no other item in the game exists as such, and it's not published in any rulebook, the idea that it should be Common is a misnomer, so right out of the gate, that item is out. (And before you try to argue it, no, you can't have the Sheath for it either, because they are connected, so it makes no sense to have the price for one but have a separate value for the other.)
Full Plate is a bit more understandable, but the issue is that it is a Level 2 item not typically available to everyone (especially right away). And again, the entry says that you "begin play." It would work with a Level 0 or even a Level 1 Heavy Armor, given that those are mundane items, but a Level 2 item like Full Plate isn't really mundane.
As for magical/valuable implements, not necessarily. They only lose value while they are an implement to you. Based on the rules for Implements, there is this line:
If you acquire a new object of the same general implement type, you can switch your implement to the new object by spending 1 day of downtime with the new item.
So let's say that you have the Weapon Implement with a +1 weapon, but you come across a +1 Striking weapon. To remove the previous weapon as your Implement and make the new weapon your current Implement, you need only 1 day of downtime to make the +1 weapon regain value (and consequently, the +1 Striking weapon loses value by becoming an implement).
And before you ask, no, you can't use Implement changes to negate the costs of transferring or adding runes to items.
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Full Plate is a bit more understandable,
I don't even agree with that one. I'm with HammerJack. Regalia is not an item of type 'Armor'.
A Wand Implement is not a 'Wand' - it is described as a 'baton'.
A Tome Implement is not a Spellbook or a Grimoire.
A Bell Implement is not a Musical Instrument and definitely isn't a Coda.
The only one that is an item that has an item type that is listed in the rulebooks is the Weapon Implement. That specifically lists in its rules entry:
You can choose only a one-handed weapon as an implement
That is much a permission as it is a restriction.
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TBH, even if you allow plate armor regalia, I'm not sure the player is doing themselves any favors having a 4 bulk item they have to hold in one hand.
Mechanically I don't find the Exquisite Sword Cane to be all that out of bounds on its power. Just the price.
An Exquisite Sword Cane and Sheath is pretty comparable to a regular Sword Cane and Main-gauche. The only trait it is missing is Twin, and the Main-gauche does piercing damage instead of bludgeoning.
Pretty comparable except it gets two extra traits isn't really pretty comparable though, especially considering some advanced weapons are barely even one trait better than their martial counterparts.
Pretty comparable except it gets two extra traits isn't really pretty comparable though, especially considering some advanced weapons are barely even one trait better than their martial counterparts.
Effectively it is only one trait difference.
Sword Cane vs Exquisite Sword Cane alone, the Twin trait is useless, so all the Sword Cane is missing is Parry. Grabbing a buckler to go with your regular Sword Cane would be just as good in most cases.
Sword Cane and Main-gauche vs Exquisite Sword Cane and Sheath the trait missing is Twin - which is pretty good at least. The sheath is missing the Disarm trait that the Main-gauche has, but that isn't really worth mentioning - so I'll still give you that the Exquisite Sword Cane and Sheath has one extra trait.
And since this is requiring two weapons, there are probably other combinations of two weapons that have better total traits and stats.
Full Plate is a bit more understandable,I don't even agree with that one. I'm with HammerJack. Regalia is not an item of type 'Armor'.
A Wand Implement is not a 'Wand' - it is described as a 'baton'.
A Tome Implement is not a Spellbook or a Grimoire.
A Bell Implement is not a Musical Instrument and definitely isn't a Coda.
The only one that is an item that has an item type that is listed in the rulebooks is the Weapon Implement. That specifically lists in its rules entry:
You can choose only a one-handed weapon as an implementThat is much a permission as it is a restriction.
To be clear, I was talking more in the confines of whether it's a "mundane item" or not. I haven't really bothered to review the entirety of the Implement rules (since I only cared about having a few of the relevant Implements, Regalia not being one of them), but looking at it, yeah, I agree that regardless of "mundane item" rules, it wouldn't work.
So I picked extreme examples because (1) I figured that best demonstrated the upsides and downsides of peoples' potential interpretations and (2) if I picked something less extreme, others would just accuse me being disingenuous and trying to game my way to things like the exquisite sword cane. At least this way, I hoped to come off as transparent.
You can't win on these boards. Someone will always vilify you. >(
For some less extreme examples that I would likely allow:
You could use an Hourglass as an Amulet Implement.
A Jellyfish Lamp as a Lantern Implement.
A Religious Text or a Deck of Cards as a Tome Implement.
A Mirror as a Mirror Implement (obviously).
Or a Kite as a Regalia Implement.
And yes, I would allow all of those for no cost - but again, no sale price either.
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So I picked extreme examples because (1) I figured that best demonstrated the upsides and downsides of peoples' potential interpretations and (2) if I picked something less extreme, others would just accuse me being disingenuous and trying to game my way to things like the exquisite sword cane. At least this way, I hoped to come off as transparent.
You can't win on these boards. Someone will always vilify you. >(
If somebody's trying to assume you're going to cheese things, they're just as disingenuous. The only reason that was even brought up was because that was the example you gave, largely due that it's an infamous and ubiquitous item sought after because...reasons. Now, it might have gotten to that point if a consensus wasn't reached, but it seems the idea of "level 0 common item" is an apt description of what constitutes a "mundane item." Technically, even a level 1 common item would work, but that is about the absolute limit that you can expect.
Just as well, sometimes I wouldn't even treat the implement as any sort of item at all unless it actually matters that it is one. It's a mechanic that takes a hand to utilize (usually), or requires wearing it (in some cases). That's ultimately all it is, so that's ultimately all it has to be mechanically. Short of the Weapon Implement, none of these items don't need to be anything specific or of value, so requiring it be an actual item outside of what the mechanic calls for (not unlike Esoterica) is more for storytelling, or to get more out of the mechanic than what it otherwise does, in which case that's already GM FIAT territory anyway.