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Hello everyone,
I've read numerous complaints about casters in PF2 and even if I really love to play them I must admit I can't completely dismiss the complaints.
As such, I've written my vision of what spellcasting in PF2 should be. I've tried to stay as close as possible to the actual rules, as I think it'll be easier to use as a result.
I'll see if I can test it on the next adventure I'll GM.
In the meantime, don't hesitate to make your comments.
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I already reacted to these rules in another thread, but rereading them, I can't believe the "you may leave a slot empty, and can fill it at any time if you spend 10 minute to do so" isn't already implemented in the game.
90% of the "feel bad" of vancian casting would dissapear if this was the baseline, because people won't have to just try to guess wether they get the rp/battle balance right that day. It would also improve prepared caster a bit, as I've seen people argue that they are weaker than spontaneous ones in this edition.
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Yes, it was the case in PF1, I don't know why they dropped this rule. Especially considering the complete rebalancing of Prepared vs Spontaneous that is now clearly at the advantage of Spontaneous.
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Quite interesting. Overall I like it.
I'm just rambling/thinking through the effects I think your changes will have.
1. Reduction of spell list size
I can see the point here. Playing with my level 17 magus with lots of spellhearts, staff, and wizard dedication, omg that spell list is a weedy garden. Even when I know what I want to cast, just finding it in the Foundry UI is a chore.
Interesting effect here is a switch in emphasis away from spells that used to be good because they stayed good when you didn't heighten them (like faerie fire and true strike).
But, again coming from playing a magus; I find myself eagerly using staves and a wizard dedication to claw back lost lower level spell slots because many of them are quite useful. So I'm not sure how well this would be received.
2. Recovery of spell slots during the adventuring day
I like the general idea. I've found that at higher levels when you feel secure that you have enough spell slots for the rest of the day, you start using more big spells instead of cantrips. And that makes you feel like more of a bigshot caster than electric arcing for twenty levels. So recovering high level spells is good.
I'm not sure the exact power balance is entirely dialed in yet. I think you might need to allow recovering one of the highest levels instead, because you've lost a LOT of spells per day.
Side effect of that would be that your rules work better starting at level 1, which is traditionally the level where you have so achingly few spells per day that long days really suck.
3. At will use of utility spell
I like the idea, the 10m casting time helps balance it out vs. other ways (skills, skill feats) of resolving exploration challenges.
I don't know if healing really needs to be restricted, since Lay On Hands already exists and so do ~5 other reliable ways of out of combat healing. At level 7, unlimited L1 heal spells at 10m intervals seems like it has trouble keeping up with Ward Medic or Lay on Hands.
The 10m limit is interesting because it keeps a place for wands/scrolls/staves for quicker options. I think that's fine.
Also, the wand of level 2 longstrider would still be a thing.
4. Open spell slots
Yeah no complaints here.
5. Rework of Signature Spells
I don't dislike it, but it overlaps a bit with a different kind of "unchaining" I'd consider in my own campaigns.
Namely, that casters can get item bonuses to-hit with spell attacks. Enemy AC is balanced against martials who for most of the game have both better proficiency, item bonuses, and positional benefits. Casters may have to deal with cover and usually can't flank with spell attacks. At the most conservative, potency runes on staves could boost spell attacks and even things out a bit. This would also make spell attack spells less unattractive compared to save spells.
But, again coming from playing a magus; I find myself eagerly using staves and a wizard dedication to claw back lost lower level spell slots because many of them are quite useful. So I'm not sure how well this would be received.
It is definitely a nerf in combat, that is supposed to be compensated by the ability to recover spell slots.
I also think it gives more agenda to the player: You can forget about the lower level spells or, if you like them, you can grab Staves, Wands and spellcasting Dedications to get the most important ones. It goes from automatic to build-dependent. So you're not stuck without them, but it's now a build choice.I think you might need to allow recovering one of the highest levels instead.
That was my first idea. But after thinking more about it:
- Level-1 spells are at the power level of Focus Spells. So it's close to an extra Refocus, something that doesn't break the game.- I like the idea of top level spells being somewhat unique and not an at-will ability.
- Spontaneous casters, through the Signature Spell ability, would have access to very powerful magic. They can already break the ceiling a little. I don't want them to also cast their highest level Signature Spell once per encounter.
because you've lost a LOT of spells per day
That's not true at every level. You lose nothing before level 7. But you still get the Recovery (at level 3, so the first 2 levels are still a bit tough). It's a straight buff at level 3-6.
At mid level, you lose very low level spells, and not such a big quantity of them. So in my opinion it evens out. And there are Wands if you really like them.At high level, you start losing a lot of spells. But I think it compensates the buff at low level.
So, on your entire career, I think it's evened out.
I don't know if healing really needs to be restricted, since Lay On Hands already exists and so do ~5 other reliable ways of out of combat healing. At level 7, unlimited L1 heal spells at 10m intervals seems like it has trouble keeping up with Ward Medic or Lay on Hands.
Seeing your returns on that point, I'll remove the GM possibility to restrict it. I also think it shouldn't break the game.
I don't dislike it, but it overlaps a bit with a different kind of "unchaining" I'd consider in my own campaigns.
Namely, that casters can get item bonuses to-hit with spell attacks. Enemy AC is balanced against martials who for most of the game have both better proficiency, item bonuses, and positional benefits. Casters may have to deal with cover and usually can't flank with spell attacks. At the most conservative, potency runes on staves could boost spell attacks and even things out a bit. This would also make spell attack spells less unattractive compared to save spells.
I've put the +1 to Spell Attack rolls because I've put a +1 to Spell DC. I don't expect many players to choose this effect over the other 2, both because Spell Attack Roll spells are mostly cantrips and Focus Spells, but also because Spell Attack Roll spells often have nice Heightening effects.
If it's causing issues, I can remove it with no second thought.Also, it's an untyped bonus that works with your change.
It would indeed help spellcasters a lot, but it would also make spells way too good as things are right now. Spells were design with in mind the idea that you only get a few casting of "top heightenned" spells, so most heightenning effect is rather strong. it would have to be nerfed accross the board to make that change, or to make that "auto heightenning" something that can only be done a limited amout of time per day/encounters.
This is probably a dumb question but would just changing the rules on heightening spells to match those for cantrips and focus spells (i.e., they auto-heighten) help ameliorate the spellcaster issue? I ask because the changes you have here are fairly beefy.
My changes are not meant to buff casters, but to modify them to suit their fantasy, or at least what I think should be their fantasy.
Also, heightening all spells automatically would put you back in the PF1 ways where high level casters were just far more powerful than martials.This seems like a no brainer; however, will it take away from using refocus?
No, but it takes 20 minutes if you need to both recover a spell slot and refocus.
While I like the Neo-Vancian casting of 5th Edition, I see the reason for the existence of the old Vancian casting method.
One of my biggest concerns with changes to make wizards, and other prepared casters being basically given what is viewed at as the most powerful part of being a sorcerer for free, what they normally give sorcerers seems pretty insignificant.
I honestly feel that you are being honest in trying to give sorcerers something that would be of value, but I can't help but feel like it doesn't do it, and doesn't feel in line with general design principles in use in second edition.
One example, in order to use the ability, you have to reduce the number of spells a sorcerer knows/has ability to cast. People like to say that sorcerers have it best, are flexible casters, when in reality, they have to Prepare their spell list at character creation time (or level up time). Sure in a particular moment, in a combat encounter, especially later in the day after other encounters, they may have more useful choices than a wizard who has spent half their spell slots. But they just as likely have a large selection of useless spells, because they didn't select the ones that would be useful for this leg of the journey at character creation.
Keep in mind, play, especially in 2nd edition exists in three modes, encounter, exploration, and downtime. Sorcerers have to select their spell selection for all three modes, or accept that during some of those modes they will simply be 'non-magical' participants.
While I like the idea of offering some utility spells, that would be leverageable in 'exploration mode', for instance easier that didn't necessarily consume daily resources seems like a good idea, I'm not sure eliminating them from encounter mode is the answer. I was disappointed that all rituals seem to be things that had to be downtime, taking days. I think there is definitely room for some spell casting in 'exploration' mode that takes 10 minutes and didn't chew up a slot. The interesting question being... could sorcerers (or other spontaneous casters) be allowed to leverage these sorts of spells without having to consume a limited encounter spell slot?
While I understand the idea of potentially making lower level spell slots to be re-enabled/cleared, I can see there potentially being spells that potentially should not be allowed to be cast more than a handful times a day, which allowing it to be recovered similar to how focus spells are recovered may open up an ability to be abused one would not want to allow. Could that be alleviated with a tag on such specific spells that prevent them from be cast into a recycled slot, or such, that might be possible, but I don't know if it is worth it or not.
As for your suggestion about prepared casters being able to leave a slot open. I'm 100% behind you on this, and this should have been true from the start if you ask me. I think all prepared casters should have this options. They should be able to prepare all their spells at morning prep. If we want to make it more efficient during morning prep, limit latter filling of open slots to one spell per 10 minute block. (although I might be willing to let them memorize a single spell into multiple slots if that is what they want) I don't see any reason to balance others for this, I feel like this should have been baseline... but that is also me someone may feel spontaneous casters should get something.
Honestly, another couple options for pseduo-vancian prepared spell casting would be, you prepare as usual filling slots. When casting a spell, you mark out a spell of the level of the spell you cast. This does not have to be the spell you just cast. So you could pick 3 1st level spells: Sleep, Burning Hands, and Shocking Grasp. As you adventure, you find out you are going up against elves, so after casting a burning hands to hit a handful of elvish bandits, you cross off your 'sleep' spell. Or alternately, you could allow prepared caster to slot an individual spell twice in one level, and rule the spell will not get wiped from their memory, or as part of the casting it gets wiped, but having the extra memorized instance allows it to be pulled back. I'm not sure how you balance that this steals some of the ability of the spontaneous caster at no long term cost to the prepared caster (just reduced spell choice during the times they have the benefit).
The idea of making utility spells into rituals is interesting and makes some sense. Although not all utility spells would make sense like that (ex: Knock).
If we are removing utility spells then it makes sense to remove lower level spells. But then the spells I mentioned previously would have no place. So I am a hit reticent about straight removal of those lower level spells.
If you really want to cast Knock for 2 actions then you can Prepare it. If you want to be able to cast it for 2 actions regularly, then you buy a Wand. We are speaking of spells 3 levels under your maximum, so Wands/Scrolls of these cost a penny. So I don't think I've removed anything.
Still, your post makes me consider that I should add downcasting (for Spontaneous casters) as one of the 6 points. I know JJ said we should allow it but it's still not written explicitly and without it Spontaneous casters are in a worse situation if they want to cast Knock without getting a Magic Item for that.Being able to regain a spell would definetly solve the limited nature of them. But it also feels like people would want to lower the power because "you can get more spells". Its something that should be investigated.
That's why I've removed a top level spell slot and the removal of the lowest level spell slots are also a loss of spells. It's supposed to balance each other.
I honestly feel that you are being honest in trying to give sorcerers something that would be of value, but I can't help but feel like it doesn't do it, and doesn't feel in line with general design principles in use in second edition.
I also wonder if I've made the proper choice for Signature spells. I want to dissociate Prepared casters from Spontaneous ones. Prepared casters have always been about adaptability, as they have a lot of spells to choose from so I want to highlight that by the changes. On the other hand, Spontaneous casters were, in the past, more about specialization, as they were having very few spells but the ability to cast them very often. With PF2, they became the kings of versatility, far more versatile than Prepared casters who are just more versatile during the very first encounter of the day but after that their reduced spell list and their lack of Signature spells put them far behind in versatility.
On the other hand, many players complain about the lack of specialized casters, like the classical necromancer, summoner, blaster or whatever. So I think Spontaneous casters should be able to fill this niche. And that would need a buff to spellcasting as currently spellcasting is balanced around having a vast choice. Limiting the choice should be compensated by something, whatever it is.
While I like the idea of offering some utility spells, that would be leverageable in 'exploration mode', for instance easier that didn't necessarily consume daily resources seems like a good idea, I'm not sure eliminating them from encounter mode is the answer.
As I answered to Temperans: I don't eliminate the ability to prepare them (I'll add downcasting to Spontaneous casters so they'll also keep it for encounter mode).
While I understand the idea of potentially making lower level spell slots to be re-enabled/cleared, I can see there potentially being spells that potentially should not be allowed to be cast more than a handful times a day, which allowing it to be recovered similar to how focus spells are recovered may open up an ability to be abused one would not want to allow.
There's a Wizard feat to cast 4th level spells at will. So I'm basing myself on this feat to say that it should not imbalance the game.
Honestly, another couple options for pseduo-vancian prepared spell casting would be, you prepare as usual filling slots. When casting a spell, you mark out a spell of the level of the spell you cast. This does not have to be the spell you just cast. So you could pick 3 1st level spells: Sleep, Burning Hands, and Shocking Grasp. As you adventure, you find out you are going up against elves, so after casting a burning hands to hit a handful of elvish bandits, you cross off your 'sleep' spell. Or alternately, you could allow prepared caster to slot an individual spell twice in one level, and rule the spell will not get wiped from their memory, or as part of the casting it gets wiped, but having the extra memorized instance allows it to be pulled back. I'm not sure how you balance that this steals some of the ability of the spontaneous caster at no long term cost to the prepared caster (just reduced spell choice during the times they have the benefit).
One of my design goal behind this document is simplicity. I don't want to bring a rule that is more complex than the existing ones. Your ideas are not bad, but they are complex. That's why I don't think they answer the needs.