Magic Item vs Spell Required Clarification Needed - Bull's Strength vs Belt of Might


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

So I am trying to get my head around the logic of allowing a belt of might to have a +6 option when Bull's Strength is a spell that provides +4. So somehow casters are both more and less powerful than the spell mentions. This would make sense if there is a greater and lesser version of the spell.

Am I missing something or should players just look to create items with their craft abilities that can be more powerful than the spell effects? (I don't really mean that but that's the tone they set and the reason for my consternation).

Thoughts?

Hopefully something I just haven't found..


you are missing the part where the price of the item represent it's costly crafting material and it's power level.
the same spell is used for +2 belt, +4 belt and +6 belt. how come?

it's because the base of the item's powers is not from the spells used crafting, rather from the crafting materials.

the material for the +2 belt can be assumed to be less potent then that of the +4 and the +6. while the +6 might include some rare material that enhance the potent of the spell way beyond the spell power (and that is why it cost so much).

you can craft a +2 belt with a mere 2,000 worth of material while a +6 would cost you 18,000 gp. (crafting costs, not buying costs)

also remember that when crafting one can ignore spells used to craft items (as long as it's not a spell casting item etc) by increasing the dc by 5 per skipped spell. this shows that the costly material is what really matter when crafting (and that cost can't be ignored no matter how high you will set the dc) the spell is more a way to focus the power of the material. if the item's powers came directly from the spell -ignoring it should not be an option.

you should try and think of it backwards. with the right material one can craft an item but without spells to help 'focus' the power of the costly materials while crafting the dc is higher. the spell is not what give the item it's power, it simply what make it easier to craft. (like training wheels on bicycle. if one is well trained he can do without but they help those who are not so good)


    You're way overthinking things. The crafting requirement is chosen for flaMost magic items do not apply a spell's effect to the wearer, they have an effect created independently.
    For example, Swarmbane Clasp's craftign requirement is Repel Vermin, which while vermin-themed, has a completely different effect form the item.

I'm pretty sure when writers invent magic items, they don't pick a couple of spells and mash them together, but rather create the item's effect first and only adterwards pick some more-or-loss related spells for the crafting requirement.

Liberty's Edge

Derklord wrote:
    You're way overthinking things. The crafting requirement is chosen for flaMost magic items do not apply a spell's effect to the wearer, they have an effect created independently.
    For example, Swarmbane Clasp's craftign requirement is Repel Vermin, which while vermin-themed, has a completely different effect form the item.

I'm pretty sure when writers invent magic items, they don't pick a couple of spells and mash them together, but rather create the item's effect first and only adterwards pick some more-or-loss related spells for the crafting requirement.

Thanks. I initially assumed so but it's such a vague way to handle things. Given they later released a mighty strength spell in a pathfinder publication it makes it harder to govern creation. I have to just assume the materials to handle such an enchantment are out of this world expensive. I hope 2e handles this better as far as explanation.

Totally fine with the game world letting material help dictate the effect, but I wish they had spelled this out more explicitly.


there's no contradiction. The two are separate things; one(or two) is a magic item requiring a spell to craft and the other a spell. The spell and magic item confer the SAME bonus type, so with both going you get the higher(better) bonus of the two.
In game jargon "scaling" refers to how the number increases, with ability scores it is +2, +4, or +6 yielding +1, +2, & +3 modifiers respectively. Weapons and armor scale at +1, +2, +3 etc and you'll see "effective" before the enhancement bonus as some weapon qualities have a name rather than a plain enhancement bonus to hit & damage or armor class.
In game jargon "stack" means accumulate or accrue (add together). Most bonuses don't stack, a few do (dodge, luck, ...).

It's the same as covered by the DnD3.5 OGL.  20 years now...

honestly magic has a lot of rules and interactions. It's best to review Magic Item Creation section of the CRB which is better laid out and more sensible than the parsed rules on Archive of Nethys. Always review the Crafting Feats when doing a magic item so you can check spell level limitations and exactly how the item operates.

Scarab Sages

Paltor wrote:
Derklord wrote:
    You're way overthinking things. The crafting requirement is chosen for flaMost magic items do not apply a spell's effect to the wearer, they have an effect created independently.
    For example, Swarmbane Clasp's craftign requirement is Repel Vermin, which while vermin-themed, has a completely different effect form the item.

I'm pretty sure when writers invent magic items, they don't pick a couple of spells and mash them together, but rather create the item's effect first and only adterwards pick some more-or-loss related spells for the crafting requirement.

Thanks. I initially assumed so but it's such a vague way to handle things. Given they later released a mighty strength spell in a pathfinder publication it makes it harder to govern creation. I have to just assume the materials to handle such an enchantment are out of this world expensive. I hope 2e handles this better as far as explanation.

Totally fine with the game world letting material help dictate the effect, but I wish they had spelled this out more explicitly.

I think they left it up to GM deliberately as there's a lot of different ways to handle it depending on the world your running for example and off the top of my head . . .

Item Material Quality
The material determines how powerful the enchantment is. Ratty leather with poor quality stitching and uneven holes punched through it can only handle a small amount of power (+2). Fine quality leather with detailed stitching and careful evenly spaced holes can handle a reasonable level of power (+4). Leather from rare naturally creatures like blink dogs stiched together with thread woven from liquid gold and with holes ringed in silver can handle the most power before overloading (+6).

Spell Storage
A spell consists of power but if you just cast it on something it doesn't last forever. So magic items aren't just a normal item with a spell on them there's runes stiched into the fabric or formed as part of the metal, maybe gems inset in it holding the power of the spell flowing out through the magical stitching. Depending on how you "program" the item it can hold different levels of energy compared to a free spell either restricting the spell to a weaker version (+2) or amplifying it (+6).

Spell Focusing
Similar to the above but here you need various items (tools) to craft magical items because they enahnce, hinder and otherwise alter your magic out of the normal form it takes. For instance a magical lens might focus magical energies like a magnifying glass focuses sunlight making it more intense at the target point even though the actual level isn't changing.

Complex Casting
You need the base spell or spells but you aren't actually casting the spell into the item your shaping the magical energy into new forms in ways that aren't normally possible when casting in combat or threatened. Its not a standard action repel vermin its a 3 hour ritual inverting some components of the magic while reshaping others.

Practical Spellcasting
Another one similar to the above but here mages just learn "spell X" to cast because learning all the magical lore and scientific rules behind it is just to complex to keep in their heads. This is related to spells like fireball with increasing damage. If you truly understand enhancement magic you can increase or lower ability scores by anything from 1 on up. However to get this level of understanding your looking at decades of study so its easier to just learn Bull's Strength and apply a flat +4 to strength. Item crafting you learn some more of these rules and can apply them when making magical items but you still are just scraping the surface.

Depending on the game world/GM you could use any, all or none of these explanations.


Paltor wrote:
I initially assumed so but it's such a vague way to handle things. Given they later released a mighty strength spell in a pathfinder publication it makes it harder to govern creation. I have to just assume the materials to handle such an enchantment are out of this world expensive.

I have a hard time understandingn what you mean. Is your issue that the game didn't provide the flavor for how magic items are made in relation to their 'base spells'?

Because that's what it's about, flavor. The cut-off line in my last post was supposed to say "The crafting requirement is chosen for flavor more than anything else."

Just like spell material components, a magic item's creation requirements are done to give a bit of feel of (pseudo-)realism, something added so that people can wrap their head around what the spell or magic item does. And in both cases, it is not supposed to be a (significant) limitation.
How exactly that works is deliberately left in the air, as it's one of the things under the GM's purview as a world-creator. The guano and sulfur material components of fireball are there because early gunpowder (black powder) was made from guano and sulfur, but it's left to the GM (and the players) to come up with or imagine how the spell creates its effect, if they chose to do so. Similarly, Robe of Arcane Heritage has the creation requirement "Speak With Dead", even though the magic item's effect have absolutely nothing to do with the spell's effect. What it serves is to give an entry point for an explanation (contact with your ancestors à la the avatar state), if the player/GM want that.

And never forget, Pathfinder is a game first and foremost. Many things are done with focus on game balance rather than in-universe-realism.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Magic Item vs Spell Required Clarification Needed - Bull's Strength vs Belt of Might All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.